Dezmond said:

Oh but come on! I just had a conversation with my friend about ridiculously large swords, and the daiklaves and grand daiklaves from Exalted. Who can like that? (seriously)

Its a sword thats sometimes three times as large as its wielder! How the hell is it supposed to be used in confined spaces? And they are sometimes a foot broad to boot?

My personal opinion is that the swords in the Devil May Cry games are pushing it, but are within acceptable parameters (a foot or two shorter than its wielder, sort of like a claymore. And a decimeter plus a few centimeters broad blade). But swords that are LONGER than its wielder makes no sense at all. Whats the point? I mean if you are such a high-powered magical superfreak that can actually lift such an abomination, then what the hell would you need the extra range for? (because I can honestly not think of another reason why a blade of a sword has to be LONGER than its wielder)

If you're that good then why cant you just simply walk the extra THREE STEPS and chop the enemy to bits with manic glee?

Sure, the WH40K universe also includes pretty over the top stuff (like The Primarchs for example). But at least it gives you another lesson than: "look at how awesomely awesome we are! Bask in the radiance of our glory", with those guys (making several of them succumbing to the ruinous powers, one or two disappearing because they grew disillusioned, and the rest died or was horrendosly incapacitated). Their weaknesses is what made them interesting as characters (even though you have to stomach slightly ridiculuos proportions of "awesomeness" in the Horus Heresy books). It also made their relationship with "normal" people interesting.

As for weapons wise: yeah we have weapons that are pushing the boundries of ridiculousness in WH40K, but like the Devil May Cry games, they stick within reasonably acceptable parameters (for examples where guns grow ridiculously large and pre-pubertal, see the early editiions of Mutant Chronicles) . Sure Bolters are big, but they have a reason for being big other than looking overtly bad-ass (looking TOO overtly bad-ass is not a good thing in my opinion).

All in all, the WH40K stuff holds within acceptability even though it strays once in a while within the confines of ridiculousness. Thats why I can still like it.

But DAIKLAVES? Im trying desperatly to undersand the fascination with such abominations, but I fail all the time. If someone could bring me clarity it would be nice. : /

Given how attracted all my chums were to the original klaives* in Werewolf, I feel a chainklaive would go down really, really well.

*Whats a klaive? Hell if I knew but they sure sounded cool.

It's a silver dagger or silver sword with a spirit bound into it to make it a little more useful as a weapon than a normal silver one would be.

Now could we please go back to the topic, which happens to have nothing to do with 50' long phallus symbols or Space Marines?

Cifer said:

Well I'll slightly disagree with you here. The whole "Space Marine" topic is based on the relative perceived weaknesses and strengths of 40k characters, which then relegates to the power level of Dark Heresy, it being a 40k game. Basically the arguement boils down to Dezmond's demands that 40k be a much higher power level then Dark Heresy allows which all in all is what the conversation is about.

I have no idea where the 50' long phalluss symbols though came into the picture.

Bottom line:

Dark Heresy isn't about Space Marines. Deathwatch will be, but Dark Heresy is not. Its about normal people doing extraordinary things (I've said this before). Its power level reflects this, where you start out as a normal person, and slowly work your way up the ranks. As Dezmond said, it takes quite a while to get to tier 8 (heck it takes a while to get to tier 4 with twice a week gaming sessions) so by the time your Dark Heresy characters get to tier 8, Ascention will be out, as will Rogue Trader, and Death Watch will be up and coming.

While Peacebringer brings a good point that nothing says that Rogue Trader and Ascention will start at Dark Heresy tier 8, there is a good marketting chance that they will at least allow some continuation between tier 8 and higher tiers.

So yes, the power level is relatively low when compared to what Deathwatch should be like, but then its how the game is done.

Also, there is nothing... NOTHING stopping you from running a game where your players start at tier 5, 6, 7, or 8. Nothing. There is nothing stopping you from starting at tier 8, and continuing along advancement paths and such on your own, making your characters into tier 9, and 10 (with a bit of house ruling). So this fixation on "starting level characters suck, I want to get to tier 8 now now now and be bad ass" makes no sense because you CAN do just that.

Now that's assuming that's what your gaming group, and your GM wants to allow you to do. What exactly is stopping you from creating a tier 8 character, out fitting him or her with heavy bolters, power armor, and a power sword, taking all kinds of talents and elite picks, and going to town? Only your GM is.

Now to reply to Dezmonds quote

++Well, you do not bad ass marines and I'll do ten foot world-crushing Marines with 50' diaklaves and we shall see which sells the most neh?++

Tell you what Dezmond, I'll take you up on that offer and make you one better. You go write yourself a world-crushing Marine game... go ahead and do it... I challenge you to do it...

If:

a) you sell more then Dark Heresy, and game with no Marines in it at all then I'll give you credit.

b) you can create it before Deathwatch comes out I'll give you major props.

Until you can do both of those, you need to drop your arguement. Dark Heresy isn't about Space Marines, neither is Rogue Trader. All your whining and crying about how GW and FFG messed up with Dark Heresy instead of doing Deathwatch is not only pointless, but concidering how well Dark Heresy is doing, simply incorrect.

You show a disturbing lack of knowledge about what 40k is about, what the fluff says, and 40k "realities" when compared to your own conscepts of what a Space Marine is all about, not only hurts your arguements, but shows you to be nothing more then a instant gratification power gamer. You don't want 40k Space Marines, you don't... you want Exalted in SSSPPPAAACCEEE... which 40k has never been, including your Space Marines, contrary to your belief.

Space Marines have never been in all the years of 40k as bad ass as you make them out to be. Not in all the years of the tabletop, not in all the years of the novels and all the fluff. Are they bad ass, yes, but they have their asses kicked as much as they kick ass.

So your concept of the power levels of Space Marines is simply incorrect, which means your vision of Dark Heresy alcolytes is also clouded by a misperception of the relative power level of Space Marines.

Wow, this power level issue just keeps running and running doesn't it?

How many threads now?

About 100 over various boards since DH release day?

Its quite astonishing how many times the same arguements go round and round! Hehe...

Xathess Wolfe said:

Incidentally, how well is Dark Heresy doing?

Luddite said:

Good? Didn't the CE sell out in 6 mins. And didn't the core rulebook sell out on the first run? Unfortunately they don't show any concrete numbers in GW investor's summary page. Any press releases from FFG available on this matter? I'm inclined to think it's doing good seeing how often I see it mentioned in RPG.net and other forums.

+++++you want Exalted in SSSPPPAAACCEEE...+++++

Darn tooting. Are you gonna tell me 40k can't give me it?

Dezmond said:

What I see on the picture there is SEVERAL people and a WARMACHINE. And from what I've understood from Exalted is that you play hyper-powered demi-gods that can split planets with a pelvic thrust. A bit of a difference there now aint it?

Varnias Tybalt said:

Thats the spirit!

I heard Leman Russ once pleasured the entire population of the harem-world of Warlord Thrax towards the end of a ten-decade drinking spree.

Now, you try!

Oh, dear Lenin in the Sky,

I almost did a Bush and choked on a pretzel after reading Dezmond's last post!

This is so awesome! I must admit that J'adore Dezmond's interpretation of Space Marines as Hindu-Space-Love-Battle-Gods!

I certainly love it more than eunuch-drone-monks that GW pushes these days.

Dez, I hope hope hope (beyond hope) that DeathWatch gives you all that and more!

And BTW have you read Metabarons comic by Jodorowsky? I think that Metabarons craziness is something that can be very inspirational and entertaining for you.

Here is the wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabarons

Cat that Walked by Himself said:

I think you hit the nail on the head. As much as many of us would like to think of Space Marines as Hindu-Space-Love-Battle-Gods, the reality is that GW isn't pushing that now adays, and if GW isn't pushing it, then FFG CAN'T push it, due to the agreement.

It has nothing to do with "this game would sell" which it indeed may or may not, it has to do with how GW itself interprets Space Marines, and its (unfortunatly or fortunatly) is not Hindu-Space-Love-Battle-Gods.

For FFG to promote Death Watch as such, would anger as many people as it attracts I'm afraid, because, in my opinion, they'd be hammered for breaking canon.

Thing is, GW don't promote drone marines. No one writes drone marine novels becuase they don't survive contact with a narrative. It is actually largly an unfortunate internet meme that needs stamping out with a good Marines as they act in all the fluff rpg.

And as for badass levels, when the space marine video game comes out we will have a lone marine gunning down endless waves of foes, so I see no reason we can't do the same. Not to mention the exploits they get up to in Brothers of the Snake...

After all, canon is the sabat crusade source book and the horus heresy novels.

Dezmond said:

And we all know how well the Horus Heresy turns out... Chaos Space Marines invading Earth, the Emporer doing everything but dying, incredible numbers of Astartes falling to Chaos, and how many chapter heads dying?

Yeah that's bad ass for you... we're so bad ass it takes the most powerful of us (the Emperor) DYING in order for us to win. Oh wait I forgot, Space Marines are so bad ass they don't die, they just hit reload.

Edit: From what I can remember off the top of my head about the Shabbat World Crusade, I believe there were what 4 Astartes clans there (or was it more) along with tons of Guard regiments, but I don't remember any Chaos Marine Clans participating.

So basically we have the Horus Heresy, where when faced with equal numbers of equally powerful enemies almost lose, except for the sacrifice of the Emperor himself. Not a great showing.

The Shabbat World Crusades, where they fight a number of chaos cultists and regulars, and yet still need the support of quite a few Guard Regiments to get the job done, proving once again they're not gods.

Dawn of War - They fight Chaos Marines, lose a Librarian to Cultists (definatly not one of your so called drone Marines) so I guess that defeats your "only drone marines die".

You're arguement isn't holding up to the facts Dezmond. Crusade after Crusade, Apostasy after Apostasy the Marines get stomped... hard. Unless you're going to say the Emperor is a drone Marine not worthy of saving I'd say that unless the Marines are facing inferior foes, with quite a few reinforcements, they don't do so good.

So lets see how the Space Marines fair against other foe...

Necrons... not so good... Necrons invaded Mars for heavens sake...

Tyranids... not so good... only defense is to wipe out entire planets...

Eldar... not bad but not great... Eldar have a tendency to be weaker pound for pound but more knowledable and much more maneuverable.

If you want I can go on and start naming Marine Chapter founders that died too... so unless you want to say that the Founders are Marine Drones, your arguement of only drones die is still not holding up.

You really don't think a lot of people would enjoy a badass marine game?

I know I would.

Dez, even marines can be a little "less" bad-ass from time to time:

Dezmond said:

You know I have to agree with you. I'd love to see a Space Marine Game

Oh you know what be really cool, making one on the Deathwatch chapter... that would rock... I really wish someone would be planning on making a Deathwatch Space Marine RPG.

Oh wait........

I'm really getting tired of this Marine talk, we all know they're the mickey mouse of games workshop, why must they be in everything made regarding 40k? they're in DoW, and are pretty much the focal point, they are the most played army in the tabletop game, they've got a new video game coming called...yup you guessed it "Space Marine" and they feature in most of the Dark Library books, can't we just have one game system or some such without marines? they are supposed to be rare, what are the odds that anyone in Dark Heresy have ever seen a space marine? yes, very very slim.

Enough with the marine talk already, just wait till Deathwatch comes out, then you can talk SM all you want.

Cryxx said:

Post of the day . I have to admit I am getting tired of the Space Marine talk too. To use an analogy, all this talk is like discussing a World War II rpg which focuses on resistance fighters or spies or military intelligence operatives, and someone keeps saying that the Wermacht is more interesting because German uniforms look cool, the Wermacht won alot of battles at the start, and they just kick ass, so how can you not have an rpg that just focuses on the Wermacht?

Warhammer 40k is its title, not Space Marine Battles. Let us just leave the marine argument aside until Deathwatch.

And Dezmond, for the love of the Emperor, stop posting so many pictures in place of a valid argument ! It is really getting out of hand.

Cryxx, I can sympatize with this argument.

I also felt...kinda meh because DOW II featured only SM campaign.

On the other hand I think that Dezmond's arguments can be sometimes funny and even really insightful. Sometimes his arguments get better of him, like with everyone else, and he gets a little carried away, like everybody else again.

I mean you can not ban him for speaking about Marines. When BI announced their three games approach (Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch) they explicitly stated that DW was to be their 'super-hero game'. You know kinda like pelvic-thrust-world-obliterating kind of superhero game

So, Dez to kill time while waiting for it I suggest you go out and check out Metabarons (this goes for everybody, I suppose) because as far as I gather from your earlier posts it has everything you love about and would wish from SM.

Meanwhile, in the DH land and more on topic. I never felt that PCs were underpowered in combat but that at lower levels they often lacked vital skills and talents out of it.

Whats more, more often then not it seems that paths offered to PCs are geared toward combat. Not like surviving combat but like solving everything with combat. To combat this (pardon the pun), I decided to give PC extra 1000 xps at the beginning that have to be spent on contacts and backgrounds as per Inquisitor's Handbook. What do you think?

Can I play as Battle-Brother Linda in DeathWatch? Because that would be awesome.

R.

Only if you take 'Drive by shooting' talent

precinctomega said:

Commander Nimrod says that your request have been sanctioned. Oh and Jam Master Pimp Daddy from The Hood says that he really likes your idea! XD

Varnias Tybalt said:

So did Abbadon rename himself Dirty Harry and vow to purge The Hood?

As for the power level thing, I've only played one session so far with the group (I'm the GM btw) so I know I don't have much to base my statement on, but boy oh boy did the acolytes have a hard time, we played the demo game (the one with the gorgonid (sp) mine) and when it was all said and done the assassin was mutated, the guardsmen was down to his last wound and the cleric was hardly standing...and the best part, the players loved it!

The way I see it, the level of power an acolyte has depends much on the GM, I know a player in our group wants to run around using a heavy bolter and I'm 100% with him on that idea, it's up to him to get hold of a heavy bolter though and gather enough bolter rounds to use it in combat, which is a whole new problem all in all.

Though overall it also depends on your group, I'm lucky to GM for a group who dosn't ask "how can I maximise damage output and wounds?" but "how would I play this character?", none of them have asked about specific skills, equipment or the like, but one of the members asked me to give him all the info he could get on the Mechanicus, because he wanted to play a techpriest as accurate as he possibly could...if you have that type of players, power level won't be an issue.

Least that's my thoughts on the topic.

Hey all, lots to comment on. Will hit each one as I go through.

1. The Ciaphas Caine novels are my favorite books from BL and without them I would have never gotten into 40K, DH and so forth. They are well written, show the 40Kiverse from a different perspective then just "Grim-Dark-Space-Marine-Look-Orks!" mentality. You get to see the universe from the first person, and that isnt new to 40K, as Eisenhorn did so and so did the Last Chancer Novels, but Cain novels do it with humanity.

So if you dont like these books, say so, but dont disparage them becase they do not showcase the 40Kiverse the way you see it. Afterall, that only puts in you Dez's category of 40K fan.

2. Whoever said Vos was a Scum is not reading the same book I read. He is a Guardsman the same as Drake, but with a different origin and possibly some rank 1 or 2 alternate career rank and possibly a starting package. Heck, its obvious drake has some sort of starting package/alternate career rank, that made him aware of all the house guard stuff.

3. Scourge the Heretic, not the greatest novel ever written, but one written to be based on a game. And for that, it works. I have 3 new players to Dark Heresy who are also pretty much new to 40K as a whole. I gave them a copy of StH and now they are on the same page.

4. I agree space marines are better then normal guardsmen, in my world that is reflected by a 10-15 point advantage on certain stats and abilities. They are not 10 foot tall world crushers. That is so utterly stupid, boring and so anime it makes me want to.. well do bad things.

5. These are my own personal opinions. If you disagree with them, Im sorry.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Ah, the irony...

Or possibly, I find Dark Heresies characters frustratingly dull given the possibilities of the setting, and anyone who doesn't think 10' marines who can kill an armoured company with a single pelvic thrust is both a valid interpretation of the source material and a potentially very popular one is just being difficult.

And frankly, if you want me to even think about putting up with your dull ass **** you can **** well put up with mine.