Hello fellow DH players! As I was going through our beloved DH books I noticed some weird things .First of all the fact that if you're a Puritan you get no extra goodies whilst a Radical can end up with some awesome abilities ,powers ,weapons etc. The other weird thing is the cleric and the sororitas,she gets some badass faith talents and the priest whose the vessel of the God-Emperor's will gets…nothing…
Though some might argue fluff-wise that a Puritan just just seek righteousness ad nothing else it is not rewarding for players ;and the same thing can be said for the cleric ,but I believe that I've seen some miracles i WH40K.
So after noticing and thinking about thos things I came up with this idea : a Faith characteristic !
It isn't completely finished but my secondary GM and I worked up much of the rules.
It would work similarly to the Infamy points in BC ,depending on your actions ,you'll gain or lose Faith points.The players would only know at the end of the session so that they must think in order to know what they did to gain/lose Faith Points. Ultimately ,it is the gm who'll choose how many points to give ( in order to not encourage the players to do good deeds only in order to get Faith Points).Each character starts with 20+1d10 faith points except for the cleric who starts with 25+1d10.

Every ten points you roll a d100 and apply the effects on your character (I'll post the grid later). If somehow you lose Faith you'll also randomly lose one of the bonuses. That is for every character. But priests have in addition miracles. Every ten points they also get to choose a minor miracle and every 20 points he gets a minor and a major miracle. Minor miracles basically work the same way as minor psychic powers . However these major power are not chosen but divided in different branches (ex: Banishment,aura etc…) . When you first gain a major miracle you choose a branch . Then every time you are to gain one ,you advance one step .

My topic is not complete sorry ,has we haven't finished yet but I'd like to know your opinion and if some of you are interested I'll complete the post.
Thank you,
B.Kaedran

If you read Blood of Martyrs you get Faith Rules for Clerics too. No longer just those Violent Vixens who get to play with miracles!

I did not know that but sadly I haven't got that book . Is it worth it? I guess I should look into it .
Also we wanted to give players an opportunity to play as a Puritan and get bonuses ,'cause so far I've seen real bonuses only for Radicals .
In a game which focuses on the servants of the Holy Ordos I couldn't understand why you didn't get similar abilities and were almost better of playing as a Radical ( take a Maletek Stalker or Sorcerer for instance). I do know that Radical characters tend to be short live but I still think that Puritans should be reward and it would also give something rather nice to the game : Role-playing opportunities (like genuinely healing some sick guy) and to some extent prevent annoying power gamers from doing stupid **** ( ex: in our last game our scum almost killed our intermediary with a revolution we needed to contact because he "assumed" that he led them to this ambush ,even though he was savagely attacked by the assassins). But then again if BoM has good cleric miracles I should look into it and perhaps mix it with my concept.
B. Kaedran

It seems like you're rather missing the point of the Puritan vs. Radical conflict. Radicals get powerful goodies and things, but the downside to this is that they alienate their peers and gain Corruption Points as a result of it. They also tend to be fairly unpleasant individuals, more so than regular Inquisitors are. The upside of being a Puritan is that you're in better standing with the rest of the Imperium and you avoid the nasty side-effects of Corruption.

When the Cleric in the core book was written, Pure Faith as a rule did not yet exist, which is why he doesn't have it; not to mention the existence of charlatans who use religion for personal gain rather than out of any real faith. The Pure Faith talent and Faith powers are more than enough bonus for Puritan characters, if you ask me; the proposed 'Faith stat' seems redundant, and as I said earlier, misses the point of the conflict. If you want a character's loss of faith to affect them in the rules, then give them Corruption or Insanity points. That's what they're for.

Greetings!

Let me start off by pointing out that this RPG's initial difference between Clerics and Sororitas is based off Games Workshop's own vision of the setting. There's a reason in the fluff for why it is like this, and it has always been one of the defining features of these two groups.

However, contrary to what many fans seem to assume, the franchise is not a uniform portrayal, but rather consists of numerous individual interpretations from various sources, ranging from GW's own codices to various Black Libary novels to FFG's series of roleplaying games, which may all occasionally deliver conflicting answers to some question. Aaron Dembski-Bowden once explained the situation as all the different books being "different lenses" through which we look at the 41st millennium (if you want, you can review the entire discussion here ), and it seems like an apt description of what's going on.

This "artistic license" is available not only to official license holders but to you as the individual gamer as well, so you are perfectly free to make use of it if you prefer your own ideas to something written elsewhere. In fact, this may not even be necessary anymore, for as Darth Smeg pointed out, this RPG already sort of offers what you are looking for by now making the True Faith talent available to everybody as per the changes introduced in the Blood of Martyrs book as opposed to what the Inquisitor's Handbook (which was still produced by Black Industries before they were shut down) once stated.

Also feel free to continue toying with your own idea as well, though! There are certainly many ways to deal with such a question - I have dabbled a little in this myself and came up with the groundwork for what I have dubbed "Purity Points" - a sort of counterpart for Corruption Points that would serve as a buffer before accrueing CP as well as a value for determining Acts of Faith. Just as an example of what is possible. Perhaps it serves as inspiration for further ideas.

Good luck further fleshing out your concept!

Boss Gitsmasha said:

Yup. Basically, the Radicals get more goodies because they're willing to cheat, bend the rules and cut corners. They'll use Xeno weapons, employ forbidden tech, overlook certain offenses in order to reach their objectives. Puritains will not and they willingly deny themseves those advantages, trusting instead that the righteousness of their cause will carry them through.

Also, I would argue that a radical cleric's faith could be just as fervent as a Puritain's. His beliefs might just not stack up with those of more traditional Clerics.

Hello!
Boss,I do get the point ,and I agree : Radicals are potent but as good as damned individuals where as Puritans aren't. But even though it is a ROLE-playing game some players might feel that it is far more interesting for their characters to be Radicals as they get all those goodies even though they might easily get corrupt . I wouldn't say that Radicals are particularly nasty ,take Oblationists for example ,who firmly belive and revere the God-Emperor and serve faithfully mankind.The point's not here though. I believe that Puritan players should be rewarded ,as they are vessels of the Emperor's light and will ('specially the clerics) and that is why I thought of the Faith Characteristic . And one last thing ,this Characteristic was not created to punish players but to encourage them to be "good" ,perhaps I was confusing and you misunderstood.
Macharias,I agree with you ,Radicals are believers and I don't intend on preventing them from having Faith .The only thing though is that if a player obviously is seduced by Chaos in order to be more Powerful and strays from the path of righteousness he won't get any . I could totally an Oblationist priest with Faith powers ,even if it might be argued that the Emperor would grant him any ,even though that's another subject of debate.

Lynata,thanks for the support!

I must admit that I was more than probably influenced by Pathfinder's (d&d) and Warhammer's concept of priests but I really thought this was something that was missing in DH even though from what i understand it exists in the fluff. I think that clerics deserve this kind of power ,some classes like the bannisher showed up later but still weren't very priest-like in my opinion : to few "miracles".
B.Kaedran

Baalkaedran said:

Ah, that explains it!

Yes, depending on which interpretation of the setting (and thus which sources of fluff) you'd be rolling with, there would be no such thing as "divine intervention" in 40k like it exists as a source of power for D&D Clerics. What is regarded as miracles would come down to in truth being either psychic powers (the Chaos "Gods"), technology (Vandire's "invulnerability"), extreme training/perseverance (SoB) or even just coincidence - just all twisted by the superstition of the populace.

The "Blood of Martyrs" supplement and its new take on Faith Talents, however, has nudged Dark Heresy much, much closer to your interpretation that seems to assume divine interpretation as a fact, so whatever you eventually run with in your campaign would actually be supported by the (newer) material of this RPG line such as other sourcebooks or premade adventures. In a way, perhaps you should get "Blood of Martyrs" after all, if only for all the new magic-like Faith Talents included there that you could use for your Cleric(s). It is a greatly expanded selection compared to the rather tame Inquisitor's Handbook, and includes three distinct "trees" that includes spells for combat, support/healing and influence-related tasks. I am sure you would find at least some of them useful.

As for the Radicals/Puritans thing, in my opinion this distinction is meant to distinguish between certain mindsets within the Inquisition, not the Ecclesiarchy. Within the ranks of the Imperial Cult, "Radical Clerics" would be just Apostates, who sooner or later end up on the pyre or at the business end of a kill-team's boltguns. There are of course differences in interpretation of the Imperial Creed, but they are not established enough (-> identical in approach, prolonged in existence, and supported by a notable segment of the greater hierarchy) to warrant a special group of their own.
However, this is just my perspective, based on my strong focus on GW's own material (such as, in this case, the Inquisitor RPG ).

And as far as Radical ideologies being more attractive to players, I would assume that many do not "get" how easily it could backfire on them. A problem with many roleplaying groups playing in a setting as "restrictive" as 40k is that some people may just have issues with adapting to the culture and society at hand, not to mention that they might simply assume they can get away with lots of things because the GM is not going to punish them anyways - in short, many actions remaining without the most likely consequences. That's a problem that every group would have to tackle on their own, though, depending on the nature of players and how bad they "abuse" their perceived immunity. There just isn't a blanket solution for it.

That's not to say that playing as Radicals might not have its own appeal even with all the consequences, though - in fact, especially with them! I vaguely recall some player on this forum talking about how his group of Radicals switched to Black Crusade later on as they became full blown traitors, for example…

That thing about perseverance and coincidence talks to me as most of the general abilities granted to players are most likely acts of fanatism than actual devotion . I think it would be easier for all of you to actually know these abilities.

Every 10 points you get ,you roll on the following chart :
01-15 add +3 WS OR +3 BS (note: this ability maybe taken several times)

16-25 You get a +5 bonus against Possession and Persuasion by daemons

26-35 You get a +5 bonus against Fear induce by a Daemon

36-45 On a Faith Test ,you may reduce by one the amount of critical Damage that you have. This can be done only once per time you are in Critical Damage

46-55 On a Faith Test you get temporary wounds equal to your Faith Characteristic Bonus. At the end of the encounter ,these wonds are substracted from your total (ex: If you start with 13 wounds ,and gain 4 wounds for a total of 17,at the end of the encounter assuming you took 18 damage you drop to 1 Critical Wound)

56-65 You deal 1 additional damage to Heretics and Daemons .

66-75 You get a +5 bonus on attack rolls made against Daemons

76-85 You always substract 1 from the amount of CPs you'd get (note that this ability stacks with Armour of Contempt or any similar ability)

86-93 Once per session you can Test Faith to survive Death

94-00 If you roll a 10 on your damage roll you can Test Faith to trigger a Righteous Fury

Every time an Acolyte loses enough point to drop one ten's digit lower he rolls on this table and loses the rolled ability . If he rolls an ability which he didn't have he rolls again.
Except if noted an ability can not be taken twice.
B.Kaedran

This still seems like a bad idea, and some of the rolls on the chart seem imbalanced. 86-93 essentially makes the character unkillable, since in my experience, it's not likely that death will come more than once every session. Only Fate Points should be able to save you from death, and Fate Points are preciously rare resources. Likewise, the increase to WS/BS doesn't gel well with me at all. Only XP should be used to increase stats like this. The rest of these bonuses are superficial and just seem to add pointless minutae.

Faith bonuses like this aren't something that every podunk Scum or Guardsman should be able to get. It should not be a stat like Infamy; Infamy works because every Chaos cultist, from the lowliest slave to Abaddon the Despoiler himself, is out for themselves, and the Infamy stat gives you an idea where you stand in the cosmic pecking order. On the other hand, notice how only truly fanatical individuals like the Sisters of Battle or the Redemptionists get Pure Faith. It takes a lot of devotion and sacrifice to pull it off, and it's something you have to devote your entire life to, mind, body, and soul. And not everyone in the Imperium is fanatically religious like the Sororitas or the Red Redemption, even if they may act this way so they don't end up on a heretic's pyre. Chaos is so seductive because it offers its power to anyone who will listen; it's the Dark Side because it's a shortcut to power. The downside, of course, is insanity, corruption, and mutation. There's no corresponding downside to your proposed Faith rules.

And even if only Clerics and Sororitas can get your Faith abilities, then the entire thing becomes more minutae for the rest of the party members.

This entire houserule is completely redundant, and it seems to cheapen the effect of faith in the first place. Just get Blood of Martyrs, use Pure Faith rules, save yourself the trouble and the headache. You want to give Puritan players a reward? Puritan players are rewarded with fewer corruption points and fewer Imperial kill-teams after their heads, plus the access to Pure Faith and its abilities. The end. They don't need this pointless system to bog down their parties.

In short, your houserule is bad, and you should feel bad. Dark Heresy is not D&D, and should not be treated as such.

Hi !
Boss I am sorry you don't like my houserule and I do appreciate your comments . Maybe you're right and that resisting death thing is slightly overpowered .
But then again you are forgetting that not only is this a game ,more precisely a game where I am GM ,but it is made to be a fun . So if you don't like the rules or don't have the same point of view than I have ,fine ;but don't throw a fit over a game ! I don't nor shouldn't feel bad as in my opinion it is a fun rule which rewards the players for being Puritans . You talk about overpowered house rules and then qualify most of them as superficial , isn't there a contradiction here. The minutiae . What? These are increases that are always there, perhaps I wasn't clear enough , but I don't see how they would slow the game.
But I don't want to use this forum as an arena ,I'll say one final thing. You should feel bad . Why? For throwing a rant on something like this ,for criticizing without pretending to help and for forgetting that this is a game . You should feel bad and also try to be useful next time someone asks your opinion ,not just plain insulting.
Now this is enough ,I'm not in kindergarden where we fight over dumb ****,have a nice day!
B.Kaedran

Two of the rules are imbalanced, the rest are pointless. I see no contradiction here.

You asked for my opinion, and I gave it to you. I had nothing nice to say about it. I don't feel bad at all; I was being honest. I gave reasons to my position, and even offered an alternative, and yet you still don't listen. If you can't take criticism, then I see that we're both wasting our time here.

Am I an *******? Sure. I was in a bad mood when I wrote my last post. But if you ask someone for their honest opinion, don't be surprised when they disagree with you.

I did say that I appreciated your comments by which I ment your honesty. Now,this seems like a mutual misunderstanding and I apologize if I somehow offended you or if you felt insulted . I just thougt that telling me to feel bad was something slightly exagerated.
I want to stop this here as the topic is not about a fight between you and I but about a new houserule I created . I will when it's done ,post the complete houserule and would really appreciate a critic as long as its not getting personal or insulting ; and this is for anyone who wants to comment .
And now this pointless unrelated arguing stops.Feel free to answer and criticize as long as it is about the rule .
B.Kaedran

I might change my mind when I see the finished product. I might not. We'll see. Until then, I'll leave you alone.

Here's an easy suggestion that I think would: 1. not require complicated tables or sweeping rules changes, 2. give these Puritanical Inquistors and Acolytes just a bit of an edge and, 3. play up the flavour of belief having an impact on the game:

Why not set up a rule similar to the Void Born's ability regarding the use of Fate points?

When a Puritain acolyte spends a Fate point, have them roll: one a roll of 7 (seems like a 'holy' number but any number would do), that Fate point is not spent. This represents their Faith and refusal to compromise with 'evil' to sustain them.

Simple, elegant and just a bit of an edge.

If you want to give them a little more, then maybe you can extend this to burning Fate points as well: on a roll of 7 the Fate point is spent instead of burnt, or just not burned at all.

Another way of doing this is like the Demanour mechanic of Deathwatch (if you're not familiar with it: you can 'play' your demeanour once per session to get what is basically a free Fate point. Also, you can double the benefit if you roleplay it well). Just give everybody the Puritain demeanour. The bonus can be doubled whenever they go to great lengths not to compromise with the enemy, not to take the easy way but trust to their faith to sustain them.

At Macharius, I like your suggestion. Fate Points are precious resources, and this would give Puritans just a bit of an edge, especially in conjunction with Pure Faith powers. Naturally, the Faithful will be able to call upon the Emperor to assist them more often because they refuse to compromise in the face of adversity. It's simplicity itself.

However, one problem: 7 is the number of Nurgle, isn't it? That doesn't sound very holy to me. Make it a 10 instead; the highest possible roll on the d10, and it's also a higher number than the chosen numbers of any of the four Ruinous Ones, representing the God-Emperor's might above all. This also means that for Puritan voidborn, they get both 9 and 10 to save their fate points, the lucky sods. (Although only a 10 will save a Fate Point from being burnt.)

Hey guys !
Sorry I haven't posted anything yet ,I didn't get much time to work on these rules .
I'll post new rules as soon as I can.
B.Kaedran

I like this rule and I've just taken it for my games; if your characther has below 30 corruptions points and do not act with knowledge in a corrupted way (I.E possessing or using daemon or xenos weapons, consorting with heretics, infiltrating know cultists, etc.), they can throw a D10 after using a fate point; if they get a 10, the fate point isn't spent.

And once per session, if they burn a fate point, on a 10 it is just spent.

It is a good stat, and it encourages the players to purifiy themselves, act accordingly to their faith and etc. by spending XP to buy back corruption points and act in a puritan way.