Just curious what others think. My personal view is no…bypassing still costs 1 credit, which is the same cost as the penalty for the corp to play an extra piece of ICE in front of the server. Of course, if you can find a way to trash the Femme Fatale, the ICE remains strong.

As a follow-up…is there ever any reason to trash a rezzed piece of ICE?

No, there is nothing about Femme Fatale or bypassing in general that means that you trash the ICE. You would only trash it as a result of a specific card effect, or if the corp player wants to trash it before installing a new piece of ICE on the server.

Twn2dn said:

Twn2dn said:

Femme Fatale has no effect that causes the bypassed ICE to be trashed if that's what you mean.

If you meant should the corp player trash ICE that is affected by Femme Fatale, it would depend if trashing the ICE would be worth it or not. If you don't have enough credits to install and rez another piece of ICE on the server for example you could trash the one that can be bypassed and then have enough to install then rez the new ICE.

Aside from what I said above, if the runner has an Icebreaker that can bypass that ICE for free you might want to trash it as well.

He means strategically, not rules wise.

I come to the same conclusion. I might trash it if it's the second piece of ice, but it still comes down to it's more expensive for the runner. The game will sometimes dictate your response, though. If you need an end run right now and you can't afford to pay the extra ICE cost, you trash it and live with it.

Femme Fatale without the bypass ability is pretty terrible - the Runner spent 9 credits on the equivalent of Pipeline. Yes, if you don't trash the bypassed ICE it still costs one per subroutine to bypass BUT if you trash it and put in something new that will cost several credits to break, you will be setting the Runner back the credits they spent on Femme Fatale, since she is such an inefficient breaker otherwise.

i don't think it's something the Corp should ALWAYS do, but, under a good number of circumstances, it can be a strong move.

Scud-O said:

Trashing ICE to make room for another, whether Fatale is involved or not, is about money. Budgeting your credits is an important part of the game. Holding on to weak or compromised ICE while accumulating credits to put another one on top of said ICE in the future can cause you to lose if the Runner can get in and grab an agenda in the present .

Femme Fatale may cost a lot, but she belongs to the speed-based Runner faction and is actually a tool for speed. Not only is her bypass ability a good way around high strength ICE but it's also a 2-for-1 deal in the early game: break sentries (even if inefficient) and bypass one other specific ICE. If replacing said ICE will lock out the Runner- even if keeping it around will cost the Runner more in the long run- then it should always be a considered an option.

On this note, I've been finding a new appreciation for Security Subcontract. I find that I need to run two kinds of ICE; the cheap, early game kind that stops the runner until he gets his rig up (Wall of ICE, Wall of Static, etc) and then REAL ICE, that actually poses a genuine obstacle for the runner, despite his rig.

This second kind of ICE is obviously more expensive, but being able to pull your money back out of the cheap ICE makes playing the big stuff far less painful. That's what I'd been going for when I included it, and it's performed reasonably.

What I had not expected, though, was the number of "fringe" uses. Getting 4c for ICE targeted by Femme Fatale, for example, is just good value. Trashing ICE infected by Parasite is another strong play.

I've also had situations where I needed a late game cash injection in order to win (whether by advancing an agenda or by flatlining a runner), and Security Subcontract can really come through in those situations.

You guys might need to check your math. Let's say a runner runs on the card they have used Femme Fatale on 4 times in the game. Therefore they spend a minimum of 4 credits. I only have to spend 1 or 2 credits to install that additional ICE, coming out ahead in the end. If I trash the Femme Fatale ICE then I gain 1 credit, but give the runner 4 credits back. It's a losing proposition.

mdc273 said:

He's talking about using Security Subcontract (trash a piece of ICE to gain 4c).

The 1 credit discount in I stalling new ICE after trashing a piece of ICE targeted b Femme Fatale is just icing. The point here is that the Runner spent a bunch of resources putting Femme Fatale in play (9 credits and 1 MU). Depending on what the game state is when they do it (for instance, how late in the game it is, what the score is, what the bypassed ICE is protecting, etc.), you can cost them a good amount of tempo by trashing the ICE they targeted. This isn't an "OMG, you HAVE to trash the ICE that Femme Fatale targets" statement. It's merely that, given the game state, trashing is something you might consider doing. The truth is, I have watched about as many games as I have played (teaching newbies, hosting our local league, hanging out with an odd number of players, and so on) and I almost never see someone even consider doing it.

The real point is that Femme Fatale should be considered a one-shot for the Runner. You drop it and use it when you need it, therefore it should usually be saved for late game, to make a "surprise run" on an otherwise impossible server. If it comes out early, the Corp needs to make sure they limit its effectiveness, and sometimes trashing the targeted ICE is the right play.

Scud-O said:

I agree with mdc273 here. The cost to play the next level of ICE is only one additional credit, so unless trashing it makes the difference between being able to rez a needed end run the next turn, seems to me its much better to leave the ICE rather than opting to trash it. At a minimum the runner still must pay credits to bypass.

Neither am I saying that you must trash the targeted ICE of Femme Fatale; just that the option can and should be considered.

As for that small cost of installing extra ICE- like I said, it depends on the money and the situation. Yes, it will delay the Runner for much longer. However, the point is not to delay your opponent; it's either to prevent defeat or to win the game outright by placing stronger ICE earlier or to score an agenda faster.

I'm coming from a speed-based perspective, so even if keeping the ICE Femme Fatale hit still slows down my opponent, it may also be slowing me down. If that's truly the case, then that ICE is going to get replaced, especially if it screws up the Runner.