I have run many tournaments for many different games in the past, but this is the first time I have come across this issue. When registering for a tournament, you have to let the TO know exactly which ships and upgrades you are using so the he/she can make sure that your squad build doesn't go over the 100pt mark (if that is the point build for your tournament), and so that you are using the same ships and upgrades for all matches in the tournament.

Should squads be registered like this, where upgrades stay with the ship in each match?

“Dutch” Vander (23 points)
Proton Torpedoes (4 points)
Proton Torpedoes (4 points)
R5-K6 (2 points)

Biggs Darklighter (25 points)
Proton Torpedoes (4 points)
R2-D2 (4 points)

Garven Dries (26 points)
Proton Torpedoes (4 points)
R2-F2 (3 points)

Or should it be registered like this, where you can choose at the beginning of each match which upgrades go on which ships?

Garven Dries (26 points)
Biggs Darklighter (25 points)
“Dutch” Vander (23 points)
Proton Torpedoes (4 points)
Proton Torpedoes (4 points)
Proton Torpedoes (4 points)
Proton Torpedoes (4 points)
R2-D2 (4 points)
R2-F2 (3 points)
R5-K6 (2 points)

I didn't see anything in the tournament rules where it clearly states how it should be handled. What do you guys think, and how was it handled at GenCon?

Roy

hmm…. I'd assume that they stay with ships… but thats an assumption

I would say the first option since changing upgrades can sometimes alter the way your squad performs.

From a TO perspective, you have to check the lists. I've run loads of Warhammer tournaments and while the squad lists for X-Wing will be nowhere as involved as checking WFB army lists, it has to be done. If for no other reason than to check their math.

And definitely upgrades, etc need to stick with the same ship/pilot throughout the tournament. The squad needs to be played the same each game, no tailoring based on what you see your opponent fielding.

Jim

My question was not whether or not squads should be checked. That is rather obvious and definitely covered in the tournament rules. I was just asking which version of registration should be used. Although I believe that all upgrades should be kept with their ships for each game, I can't find anything to back this up.

Roy

I've never played in or run a miniatures tournament where an army list/squad build could be changed between rounds. Barring something from FFG stating that X-Wing is to be done differently, that's the way I'll be running my events. Anything else is too open to abuse and not fair to all, IMO.

Jim

Seems to me like the upgrades need to stay with the character. The upgrade icons are specific to the pilots, not the ships. I think it's implied that having the same squad means having the same assigned upgrades. I don't think FFG intended people to move around upgrades between characters. Having Vader with Squad Leader is a very different squad than having a Black Squadron Pilot with Squad leader.

I'm not talking about changing your squad build. All of the components are the same. No new cards are introduced, and no cards are being removed. All of the same cards are being used in each game. I'm not saying that it should be one way or the other. I'm just saying that the tournament rules don't talk about upgrades and whether or not Biggs and Dutch can trade astromechs between games.

The more we talk about this, the more I realize that this thread should have gone in the rules questions subforum.

Roy

drkjedi35 said:

I understand what you are talking about. Moving upgrades from one pilot to another is (to me) changing your squad build between games in exactly the same way putting a magic item on a different character would be changing your army build for Warhammer. It's not kosher in any miniatures event I have ever played in. Ever. I see no reason to allow it in X-Wing. It would definitely strike me as unfair if someone could see what I am running and then trade their upgrades around. It's also possible that it isn't mentioned in the tournament rules because it's assumed by FFG that most everyone that is familiar with miniatures tournament events plays it this way.

Jim

I have played and run many miniatures tournaments for different games, but never one where there were upgrades that were not character specific. That's why I was asking.

Roy

I understood what you meant too. Like I said, using the "Squad Leader" card on Vader results in different abilities for the Squad than using the same card on a Black Squadron Pilot with much lower pilot skill. Same cards, different squad in effect.

IIRC, FFG allows sideboard in their Dust Tactics tourneys. It seems to me that unattached upgrade points function in a similar way, and do allow an element of per-match strategy.

I would think maybe the TO should announce whether upgrade points are attached or unattached for the specific tourney. At least until an official ruling is FAQ'd

At the Inaugural tourney, when filling out your squad sheet, your Upgrades went with the Pilots. I don't recall if the FF judges were checking people's squads during the tourney, but in other minis games I've played, the judges will usually grab a handful of the squad registration sheets while the rounds are going on and walk around checking random players to make sure they haven't modified their squads.

Looks like the consensus is that upgrades should stay with the ship. That's the way I hoped it would be.

Roy

Just for the sake of throwing a different opinion out there…not all minis games work that way. I don't know if anyone else in this discussion ever played WoW minis, but it was the single most fun and well balanced minis game I've ever played. That includes X-wing. The only reason it died was because of business beauracracy. In that game, you had 3 figures, which could each have two cards in their action bar. For a tournament you had 9 action cards, out of which you picked two for each character before each of your games. This worked very well, and I don't see any reason it wouldn't be suitable in X-wing as well. Upgrades are already rather expensive in my opinion (especially proton torps, 4 is terrible for a one-shot you could easily whiff with) and this would do a lot to make that an easier pill to swallow. Empire has numbers, Rebels have flexibility. And that's how it ought to be. But that's just how I see it.

My thinking is that you as TO get to make the call based on what you want your tourney to be.

I personally hate tailored list building. I consider it much more impressive for a player to win against an opponent who's list he's not optimized against than the player just proving he can out list build his opponent.

To sum up: Tactical skill is better than rock/paper/scissor list building contests. Declaring that the upgrade/pilot combos are fixed diminishes list building contests and pushes the focus onto tactics on the table top the way i prefer to play.

-DavicusPrime

I think the 1st list is more defined. There is nothing to question about your list in that format. The judge and anyone else will know, what goes with what ship.