When can I trigger an effect that reads "after you win" or "after you lose " a challenge exactly ?…after the complete resolution of the challenge or after the challenge winner determination (before renown and the other challenge mini-phases ?)

There's no opportunity for passives or responses to winning/losing a challenge to go off until after renown. For more information, see the timing charts in the FAQ.


1. Determine Winner

2. Challenge Result

3. Reward for unopposed

4. Renown

All passives with regards to winning/losing/concluding a challenge happen after Renown, in an order determined by the first player (This includes, for instance, deadly, vigilant, vengeful).
All responses with regards to winning/losing a challenge happen after the passives, in alternating order starting with the first player (This includes, for instance, Ellaria Sand).

Note that with passive, the first player only determine the order if the effects conflict. Short of an effect like Stoic Resolve being in play, Vigilant, Vengeful, and Deadly do not conflict, so they technically happen at the same time.

Thanks…I'm still confused a bit though because of a few cards……what happens if I play Red Vengeance ?…for instance (he has claim 2 and three characters with renown)…I get two characters killed, my oppenent claims 3 power for renown… and after that I get to play Red Vengeance…so I revive my characters and he kills his own (based on my claim)…but he still keeps the powers claimed for renown since challenge victory is still his ?

The reason red vengeance is throwing you off is because unlike a a 'normal' response it is a cancel and thus follows a slightly different timing structure. In the faq it gives some flow sheets for timing issues, they can be a little complicated to follow at first but once you get them down its quite simple.

What happens looks something like this.

In the framework window for implementing challenge results there are 4 framework events that go in this order,

1. Determine winner of
challenge
2. challenge result is
implemented
3. reward for unopposed
challenge is awarded
4. renown is awarded

After each framework event starts there is a save/cancel window and then the framework action resolves.

Red vengeance works in the second framework event , you cancel the challenge result (claim) and the event makes the chosen opponent have to resolve it.

After step 4, renown being awarded, passives occur, then you have the 'standard' responses like die by the sword/no quarter can be played.

Thanks ! Now I got it…I've always played events like these after the resolution but with red vengeance I got confused…so I needed clarification…thank you !

I don't think RV uses the Martell defender's claim value. The claim of the challenge is still that of the attacking player, who still wins the challenge btw. All RV does is cancel the normal initiation of claim, and makes you pick another player to satisfy that claim "as if" they were the defender. Making it great for a melee game btw.

And to be sure, the attacker still gets to use effects like "after you win a challenge" or "after you win a challenge as the attacker" - such as Die by the Word or Vigilant, the same as the Martell player can trigger "after you lost a challenge" or "lost a challenge as the defender" effects - such as Vengeful or Taste of Blood.

Slothgodfather said:

Yep. Exhibit A: the time I had a claim 2 plot then raised claim to 3 with Pike Phalanx. Most painful RV ever. **shudders at memory**

Just be thankful the Martell player didn't raise your claim further with The Red Viper that uses gold to stand & raise claim during a challenge. Could get outta control quick!