haha. easy to do. just say 'i suggest'.

i do apologise konx. i am a righteous bugger, far too opinionated and self righteous in my own right and quick to lash out at those who appear to be 'big noting' themselves ( though i now realise that this was mistaken ). i will try and take some of my own advice and investigate further into posts before i react so strongly. it's just my nature and we are who we are, and all i can do is try and fix up the messes i create.

sorry again and feel free to 'suggest' in the future and i'll not take it personally ( i'll just probably not pay attention - haha ).

COCLCG said:

In my opinion you're overracting to the point of being a poster-child case of a paranoid and you seem to be intent on picking the least favourable interpretation possible to confirm your world-view.

Now with less hyperbole: I actually looked it up in the online collins dictionary and this is what I see:

noun

1.judgment or belief not founded on certainty or proof
2. the prevailing or popular feeling or view ⇒ "public opinion"
3. evaluation, impression, or estimation of the value or worth of a person or thing
4. an evaluation or judgment given by an expert ⇒ "a medical opinion"
5. the advice given by a barrister or counsel on a case submitted to him or her for a view on the legal points involved

6. See a matter of opinion

7. See be of the opinion that

So there are seven different 'uses' for the word, yet you insist the 'only correct interpretation' is the one you stated ('a very egotistical and arrogant word'). This way lies madness! Particularly in an internet forum requented by people worldwide, only a minority being native English speakers and where it can be hard to catch nuances. No wonder you're flying into a rage all the time ^^

(if I look in my prefered dictionary (www.leo.org) I find no less than 10 different translations into German, i.e. my native language)

Anyway, this easily explains why I'm seeing politeness where you're seeing an offense.

um. im not seeing your point.

1 ) Judgement founded on what you believe to be right ( though not founded with proof )

2 ) DOES NOT APPLY ( out of context )

3 ) even worse than any of my descriptions, this one is an active attack on a person based on your beliefs so thanks for that one.

4 ) presuming you're an expert = arrogant

5 ) DOES NOT APPLY ( out of context )

6 ) not a description but a referral to another related topic

7 ) not a description but a referral to another related topic

so that only leaves my 2 'interpretations', and the bonus one you included which strengthens and verifies my explanations.

[ADMIN: Edited for content. Please keep all discourse civil, especially when you disagree.]

Any pure text communication is flawed in that it does not express emotions etc. You have to assume the tone some remarks are made in and its often easy to missjudge.

And about this "opinion" word. How would you describe "thats what I think". I always used IMO acronym for that, and it does contain opinion inside. My opinion, not an expert opinion, not a scientifict fact, my opinion, it might be wrong, if you have enough humility you see you can be wrong.

Im not a native speaker so I might be totally wrong on this, but are you sure your opinion on word opinion is not biased to match this discussion. In my language there is an expression "experts opinion" that means a judgjement by expert, but other than that opinion = what someone thinks. IMO is used to weaken an argument, not to make it stronger. General statements are stronger as they are universal, someones opinion is what he thinks is true, but he might still be wrong.

quote:

"are you on drugs ?? ( or perhaps its that mind eater sucking out any rational thoughts from your brain )."

you shure you want to talk with people on how they express their thoughts…

As a native English speaker all my life (American though, not Australian as COCLCG), the word "opinion" doesn't carry any special meaning over here. It just means "that's what I think about something". Not offensive, not strong, and no hidden implications.

I think the latter is what he's actually stuck on. He's imagining someone saying "in my opinion" in a smug voice, as if the speaker wishes to hint that his opinion is BETTER than everyone else's opinion. He started off on the wrong foot already when he stumbled on the word competitive and the mistook Konx's claim to be a good player as if it were a personal challenge. In that frame of mind, he went on to inject sarcasm that was not actually intended. It's a mistake, whether caused by paranoia or just being in the wrong mood when he read it.

Just about everyone here is at least a pretty good player. This is not a highly populated forum. We wouldn't be here if we weren't really into the game, so it's a pretty safe assumption that anyone whose name you recognize as having been around for a while knows what they're doing. Suggestions from anyone you know here should be treated with respect, and it's really not necessary to try to compare who has more imaginary tournament points or whatever. Ideas should stand on their own merits, not on whether you think you outrank the person who said it.

dboeren said:

I agree with that entire post. An opinion is just that, someone's opinion. There are no nefarious implications. It's just an opinion, of which everyone is entitled to have. If you post your deck list here then expect discussion as that is the entire point of public fora. To discuss a topic. So I would not worry one iota about how you are communicating, Konx.

COCLCG said:

And this is where communication breaks down. You made opinions and disagreed about a definition in a manner that could be discussed, then you just had to go an add this, as if the ad hominem somehow adds more validity to your assertion.

Just do without the instigatory (not a real word, but it should be as it perfectly reflects the inflammatory) remarks, and then you are suddenly a contributing member whose views are valued. Your entire argument crumbles when such tactics are used, and for no point. The very same thing you accuse others of doing in this thread.

Note, there is nothing hostile in my tone, nor in the way I have expressed myself. I am just expressing an opinion in a manner that can be debated. The only reason why I am adding my remark is to give my viewpoint and to help others understand. So please keep that in mind..

Hellfury said:

yeah. i think thats my problem, and im finally starting to realise it. i see the forum in a different light to others i guess. i post MY decks so that anyone who's interested in seeing whats being made can have a look. these are MY decks, and im not interested in what others would do to them as they are exactly that. MY decks. there is no room for opinions or discussion about what can be done to them, as then they would cease to be just that. if there's a problem, i'll come across it in game play and modify it based on my own decisions.

so, now that the objective of forums has been explained to me ( this is my first and only one ive ever contributed to ), i'll cease posting decks as i can see that responses will be a problem for me and accept that this is my issue. i should have come to this conclusion last time i was posting decks and the same thing happened, but hey, i finally got the point.

just to wind up, in review of most of the topics in this thread, they are in relation to perhaps a combo idea, or asking advice on certain things, and in this instance then sure, discuss away and i see the point of the forum operating in this manner.

but when someone posts their deck ideas ( which are like hens teeth ), then its a fairly personal contribution, and its just my belief that a little more respect should be shown for that persons creative input when making 'opinions' or responses, as any criticism or expression of need for change is indirectly questioning the persons intelligence and ability to make decks, but this is just my objective observation.

I think you're right, you really do see the forums and postings differently than the rest of us.

And, having discovered that, you're immediately already doing it again.

Look, try it this way… You had an idea for a deck, and you think it's pretty neat. So, you post it, and then other people post back.

*NOBODY* is trying to make you change your deck. It's a lot like anything else, we all have different tastes. People are just talking about what their version would be like if they were to start working on one similar to yours.

Say I post up and say that this weekend I was thinking of smoking some pulled pork on my grill, putting on some Carolina style mustard-based BBQ sauce, and having a cold root beer with it. Mmmm, good! Then some guy sees my post and he figures he could sure go for some barbecue too, only he'd rather have some vinegar based sauce and a Sam Adams. A third guy says "I think I'd go for a nice juicy steak instead, and maybe some red wine."

See, to the rest of us - these guys are just chiming in and saying "Hey, i like what you're doing and it's inspiring me to think about or do something similar (but not identical) here." To you, these are a couple of assholes trying to steal your BBQ and root beer and leave you with a crappy steak you didn't want.

Thing is, we're all just sharing our enthusiasm for our common hobby of grilling out and having some good eats & drinks. None of us really cares what the other people are eating, other than in a general fellowship fashion. If some dude wants steak, let him have it. It doesn't affect my pork sammich one bit, and he isn't going to sneak into your house at night and rearrange your cards to match his either. So why get bent out of shape over it if someone else's tastes aren't the same as yours?

Also, no, deck ideas are not really much like rare hen's teeth either. Everyone's got some deck ideas, and the more time you spend looking for them the more of them you'll manage to find. So what, they're like … dead batteries? Mismatched socks? Coat hangers? Something else? Old canned goods you don't remember buying? Something, anyway. But they definitely don't have teams of scientists dragging sonar arrays back and forth across Loch Ness looking for them, because they just aren't THAT hard to come by. Granted, some ideas are better than others, but normally the main difference is just whether you've bothered to spend much time polishing them or not.

no. i meant posting the deck ideas are like hens teeth. sorry for the misinterpretation. but anyway, issue realised. carry on with the forums.

COCLCG said:

COCLCG said:

Then there is little point to posting your decks in forums if all you want to do is quash discussion surrounding them.

Which is odd because I have seen you bemoan the fact that nobody commented on some decks that you have posted in the past.

So which is it then? Do you want to engage in discussion about the finer points of deck design and why you made those choices and why others would make different choices, or do you just want people to line up and congratulate you on a job well done throwing cards together?

If you want people to just bask in your glory, then make a website that is read-only and display your stuff there. Make a blog and turn off the capacity for the public to make comments. That's the best suggestion I can give you if you don't want anyone remarking on your decklists other than to say how phenominal they are.

obviously its been a while since anyones read the original response. it was direct critical analysis of the deck as he saw it, spoken in the manner of a gracious tutor, all cloaked in the cherry flavoured 'in my opinion'. it was more like:

'oh, you're having a barbeque. i think your choice in certain condiments are sub-optimal, you're going to need a 4 burner BBQ and not a 3 burner if you expect it to work, and only eating 2 sandwiches instead of 3, big mistake. and if you want your BBQ to be as good as it needs to be to host anyone important then you'll have to make some changes'

but whatever. apparently this is what is referred to as a discussion about the finer points of deck design around here and i simply do not agree. i dont mind people commenting and saying this might be what i'd do, but telling me im using sub-optimal cards and making mistakes in my number count and how i need to resource my domains is nothing like this. i wouldnt have squeeked if he'd said 'i would use 3 Y'olonacs', but no, he said 'it is a mistake not to use 3 Y'Golonacs and you are doing it'.

but whatever. check any of the other decks ive posted recently and you'll see that i've reacted quite decently and appreciated the comments given. its when someone comes across in a demeaning and superior way that i react strongly. but i'm the only one seeing the subtle way in which this was done so again, i suppose i see things differently to others.

but.

whatever.

go. read replies 1 & 3 again.

tell me i'm wrong, once more.

COCLCG said:

Yeah, I read it. I reread the entire thread in fact. Sounds like he has some pretty sage advice. It's a shame that you cannot get past not wanting anyone to have an 'opinion' (quoted as you like to do) on your deck about valid deck building strategies, that you think the poster is patronizing you.

You share ideas. We share ideas. it is how it works. I am not sure exactly how you think his comments are patronizing, but since you do think they are, then it may be time to contemplate why you think they are so patronizing.

Dated April 4th of 2012:
COCLCG said:

RE: Australian Nationals:
COCLCG said:

With that in mind, you responded:

COCLCG said:

So in the short span of 6 whole months, your decklists are so perfect that they are beyond comment in a public forum where you posted them? Because you won a tourney with 4 people in it?

It is really hard not to think of your quote directly above in the terms the esteemed Mr. Wonka would remark on:

People share ideas in order to learn and evolve. To deny such discourse is stagnation.

I wont say you are 'wrong', but I will say that you are seriously mistaken and need to relax more. If you can see the pic above and at least laugh a little at yourself, then there is hope yet to stop taking yourself and other so seriously to see conflict around every corner. I really do beleive you have read more into it than was stated or intended.

I would also say that this is a common trend for you and why we got off on the wrong foot originally even after defending you that people were telling you to stop posting decklists.

But then again, likely not as your response is: "But. Whatever". You get as much respect as you give. Demanding it because you wont a tourney against 4 people after you have been playing for 6 months is not likely to garner you much sympathy.

nice one Hellfury !! not only did you do a super job to belittle the achievement of buying a LCG and winning a tournament within 2 months against others that included previous world championship attendees, but you also managed to slip in an indirect generalisation about the quality of Australian players in general. you're getting good at this. keep it up and you'll be going for a certain title yourself !! bravo.

COCLCG said:

- Your behaving in such an opiniated way and insinuating that other posters are doing nothing but trying to covertly attack you elicits exactly the kind of responses you are apparently paranoid about. You're setting up a self-fulfilling prophesy!

If you don't want to invite comments on your decks, I'd recommend to post them as decklists over at CardgameDB. It also provides the functionality for you (and only for you) to revise your decks. While it's still possible for users to comment on your decks there, it happens more rarely and users are more inclined to regard the posted decks as 'complete', rather than works in progress, at least in my experience.

Anyway, in light of your last few posts I'll refrain from further comments after this.

i think that'd be best. we've already made a short story long. like i said. carry on with the forums.

Dropping out of lurking mode to express my disbelief at this thread still being alive.

This has been mentioned several times already, but: you're in a deckbuilding forum, not at a show & tell. If you post a deck, it's only normal that other players comment on it. Whether you'll accept them as superior players or not (and I would, because most of them would be playing longer than you and me combined, and even if you were some sort of card game prodigy, the forgotten love child of Richard Garfield and Gambit, experience still means a-*******-lot), they're most likely posting their comments with no ill will, but purely because they like to tweak around with decks (aren't we all playing because of this?), or maybe because they genuinely want to help someone. No one has ruining you or your image as their personal agenda (you do this well enough yourself). Or maybe they do, but then you have larger problems to worry about.

You claim others are arrogant for daring to say your deck is not flawless (shocking, I know), yet you yourself are arrogant enough to dismiss their comments without trying them out, not granting the posters enough respect to even CONSIDER the suggestions.

Whether you like it or not, this game is competitive. Two men/women/cultists walk in, one walks out, that sort of thing. If you think your decks are descended from an Ancient One itself (maybe Yog speaks to you in your dreams and whispers softly of card management), then put your money where your mouth is and win the world championships or something. I'm sure people will shut up then and never slander your hallowed decklists again.

Or you could just pout and run away as you have several times before, because of the oh-so-horrible community this game has.

Of course, there's also the option of blindly disregarding what everyone else says and continue posting your decks (which I'm fairly sure fewer and fewer people will comment on with time, but this is basically what you want). Just remember that this frame of mind is usually found in friends of the good ole Yelow guy, if you know what I mean.

And, again, maybe you should rethink who the arrogant one is, considering how your holier-than-thou attitude made a random guy log in to rant, where many other much more interesting discussions failed.

Just my .

God.

****.

look. id kill your grandma for the money needed for me to make it to worlds, and if i had anything of value to sell then i'd probably do that too. i've already got the free entry and the first round bye. what's a more realisable suggestion is that you all chip in and put your money where YOUR mouths are, cause there seems to be plenty of you and wouldn't cost you much each, and all i'm hearing is blather. again. lecture does not equal suggestion.

but, you can either join the peasant mob and pile on the rotten vegetables, or like i said, carry on with the forums.

eirei said:

oh, and perhaps look at it this way. maybe if others wouldn't dismiss the decks without seriously trying them out ( and not some version ), then i wouldn't be arrogant enough to dismiss their comments without trying them out.

You do realise that because of the time zones, Konx actually made that response before I'd even posted the thread, as if this is not some indication of the instant dismissal the deck was given. A cursory glance. Not even a single playtest to guage it's style. But 'this is what you should do !!'.

The more you talk the more you're damaging your own arguments, as I hadn't even realised that until now, and it only strengthens my own convictions.

You seriously expect that internet will playtest your decks and post only valuable comments? There are many different users with different approach, some of the users (like me) are not really good players, some other users just don't care and write their first thoughts… I cant really see anyone actually building and playtesting decks posted online before writing a comment… it would ba a ton of work for no real benefit. Most of decks are like mine - I do some dackbuiding, post some bad deck and someone says "how about card X" then i say "yeah, good idea, i missed that one". Its not an elite, only "pro" deck forum section where masters dabate on the future of CoC…

I think youre taking it a ton too seriously. Its not a debate on world piece or how to solve hunger in Africa, its just a deck, maybe better than others but still just a pile of cards… someone doesn't apprecieate your deck, how tragic… srsly… and if the guy commenting your deck is actually wrong - so what, its not the first time someone is wrong on the internet… I like talkind and reading about CoC so I come here, you don't need to be a pro to comment.

The only real test for your deck is play. If it does beat good players then how come some random forum comment gets that much reaction… its not like a bad comment is gonna make your deck worse than it is.

Yes. If this handful of self proclaimed European and American tournament miesters wish to ( and I stress again ) lecture or even make suggestions about decks. To make an objective observation and make directed remarks about a subject, you need to have all the facts, otherwise it’s simply pie in the sky preaching ( which i abhor ), and to do this you would absolutely have to investigate the subject beyond simply looking at it.

And not just that. I've seen their posted decks, these tournament placers, and done the research testing them, and although I agree some are good, others I see as nothing more than cheap junkets I could sink with any number of my decks, even if I am wrong. But do I say this ? Do I pass judgments or even make suggestions about them making changes ?? No. I would not dare. WOULD. NOT. DARE. A person’s deck is their own creative property, and I respect the fact that they've put a lot of work into it to make it their own, even if I don't agree with some choices, respect others obviously haven't learned and which the world is cruelly lacking. The audacity to even make some small inference into changing a card is both beneath and beyond me. The fact that this seems to be the accepted norm horrifies me.

What I see here are a group of people that place in or perhaps win some minor tournaments ( in the countries that count ), have been playing for longer than most and for some reason think length of time playing the game gives them some lofty position to stand and make judgments about others contributions and LECTURE about how to play the game and how to build your deck, and then proceed to collectively shout down and ridicule someone who stands up to their convictions and takes pride in the work they've dedicated to building their own deck, no matter it's quality. Well I’m here to tell them to pull their freaking heads in.

I've never inferred beyond saying YET to be beaten, that these are 'god decks', and there's obviously been some misunderstanding as to the issues I have with certain responses. I’ll take a brief moment to end with one of the rare comments that I’ve made regarding a newbie asking for advice on a deck on cardgame.DB:

POSTER: Im hopeing for some advice which cards to add or remove to improve the deck.

RESPONSE: personally, I think you've got a great start to a deck, and i'm liking it very much. only thing I would do ( since you asked ), is increase the support / event ratio a little, (EDIT: he was sitting at 39 characters and looked a little thin ) but with what is all part of making the deck truly your own. build a couple of the other decks from the site, run some mock games, and find out where your weaknesses are and which cards never seem to see the board. most my decks take a month or 2 of doing this and fiddling around before I think they're even half ready. have fun and keep it up !!

This is a response which both encourages the player to increase his own knowledge of cards and explore his own style of play, making his own discoveries as to what cards would improve the deck, and shows respect for the persons own creative process without encroaching upon it with my opinions and observations, and is what I consider an appropriate and dignified response. Not some immediate and ill-informed assumptions based on a brief look and an over inflated perception of knowledge. To think that when I first came here I thought this might be some last bastion of intelligence within the world, where instead I find myself feeling disgusted that these people, so quick to exert their egos and 'experience' upon others, were once considered my peers.

But this is the world we now live in. One without respect and overflowing with opinions, and it has delved deeper into the human condition than I had ever dared imagine.

and to quote another perfectly respectful, appropriate and humble response, from dboeren about another deck of mine, in which he was perfectly right without the self aggrandizing demeanor, nor by taking 2 months of work to build something of ANY quality and simultaneously, in the space of a few minutes, deconstructing it and belittling certain decisions in a lenghty and pointedly direct fashion, or adding any 'lessons' on how to play or build. NOTE : this deck was also commented on by konx with his umbrella first sentence in the OPR, and therefore treated with the same immediate dismissal and lack of respect.

'I like this deck more than the other, it seems to "fit together" better for me and has better early game characters without relying as much on recurring combos.

If you can clear a couple of cards and want to tip the faction balance slightly towards Silver Twilight, maybe put in some Steal the Soul or Pass Grip of a Master. If anyone does end up contesting you for the stories (and someone will sooner or later) these are both cheap cards which may help get rid of them or limit the damage. It may cost you a 2-domain at times, but the effect is what matters.

However, some of your own guys will be "caught" by Negotium as well. Whether or how much of a problem that is I can't say without actually trying the deck out, but it's something to watch for.'

bravo dboeren. there is hope perhaps for the world and this community yet, and you have effortlessly shamed those who would have more righteous responses be the example to strive towards.

COCLCG said:

What I don't get is why you didn't flip at that comment, too:

"Why, this dboeren guy is trying to tell me what _will_ happen. How can he dare?! Who does he think he is! Without even playtesting! (which he even admits to add insult to injury!) This dboren must clearly be the greatest jerk ever, treating me like a nitwit!"

_That's_ the kind of reaction I'd expected.

'However, some of your own guys will be "caught" by Negotium as well. Whether or how much of a problem that is I can't say without actually trying the deck out, but it's something to watch for.'

i think that is the quote you were looking for. why do you insist on quoting partial comments that can be percieved in the wrong light to make your own arguments valid ?

dboeren only questioned the situation, and because he admitted that he was unsure as he hadn't playtested it, this removed any righteous assumptions. it was a ponder, not a forced statement, and shows the respect that dboeren clearly outweighs most of you with.

that's EXACTLY why I didn't flip over the comment, and not seeing this is indicitive of the continual need for some to nitpick and validate their own egos and opinions by clutching at straws ( which for the non natives originates from the expression of a futile attempt to save a drowning man with a piece of straw ).

COCLCG said: