According to the rules, heroes that attack without wielding a weapon are assumed to attack with their first, resulting in 1 red die (and for melee-fighters their power dice).

One fist may make 1 additional attack with its hook, using 1 red and 1 green die.

When I would equip one-fist with a shield, could he battle, making three attacks with his hook, or 1 with his hook and 2 times with his fist (which is holding the shield, so let's call it a shield punch to prevent discussion on this part )

This situation happened last saturday, where I played one-fist and one of my friends played the OL. I thought I would be able to make 3 hook attacks. Thematically this would make sense. My OL friend disagreed, because it is against the rules. I couldn't disagree with that, so I played without the green die, but to me it feels strange.. To let it make a bit of sense, I just figured One-fist to be very non-dextrous with his left arm, resulting in only one wild swing per turn.

Any thoughts on this subject?

By the rules as written, you could make 2 unarmed attacks (red die) and 1 hook attack (red + green). One Fist gets one hook attack per turn, which is a bonus attack in addition to whatever other actions he takes and thus quite powerful, but he can't use it as a "normal" weapon.

Can you really make an Unarmed attack with a hand that is holding a shield?

Additionally (and we'll see if this starts an argument), One-Fist actually rolls Red Green and 2 (he's got 2 dice in melee right?) Power Dice for his hook. His ability is defined as a Melee attack on the card, and on page 11 of the JitD rulebook it says:

"When a hero makes a melee attack, he adds a number of power dice to his roll equal to his melee trait."

That allows One-Fist to add any power dice he has to the melee attack. The part about the Red Green is there to specifiy what the base dice are, since there are weapons with Red Yellow, Red Green, Red Green Green, etc etc etc.

He can't make an unarmed attack if he has a sheild equiped.

quartersmostly said:

I can't find anything to back that up. In fact it appears you can make an "unarmed" attack no matter what you are holding:

Heroes can only attack with an equipped weapon (or their fists, see “Unarmed Attacks,” page 19).

Unarmed Attacks
If a hero attacks without a weapon, he attacks with his fists. This is a melee attack that grants one red die and has no special abilities.

quartersmostly said:

WHy not?

DJitD pg 19

If a hero attacks without a weapon , he attacks with his fists. This is a melee attack that grants one red die and has no special abilities.

If One fist is carrying a shield and wishes to attack he is attacking without a weapon. The rules do not require empty hand(s), just a lack of a weapon.

A 'Shield Bash' (being a made up name for an unarmed attack when carrying a shield) is perfectly within the rules. One Fist attacks with his fist. That it happens to have a shield wrapped around it is irrelevant and the monsters are just lucky that there is no bonus for a shield being wrapped around the attackers fist.

fair enough makes sense to me.

I once had Spiritspeaker Mok make an unarmed attack while wielding the Ice Storm (silver level two-handed rune weapon). He declared a battle action and got into position to nuke some monsters with the Ice Storm, but the OL played a Crushing Block trap, leaving him with no movement points, no fatigue, stuck in a corridor right next to a Bane Spider with no spot he could attack where the blast from the Ice Storm wouldn't hit himself. But he had 1 melee power die and the Mighty skill (+2 damage on melee attacks), so he punches the Bane Spider in the face (killing it), then uses his second attack to shoot through the space it just occupied and hit a Master Beastman hiding around the corner with Blast. It wasn't as effective as his planned turn would've been (was hoping to kill around 6 monsters that turn), but under the circumstances, it was pretty darn awesome.

And yes, One Fist can add his melee trait dice to attacks with his hook. But that doesn't mean his attack is "red+green+black+black," it means his attack is "red+green+trait dice," which could be a lot more (depending on his training), and since all attacks use trait dice, I generally don't mention them unless they have direct bearing on the discussion.

Antistone said:

Understood. The only reason I mentioned it is that the same issue caused several debates on the old forum. Figured I'd get it out there since for many new players its not obvious that he gets the trait dice.

IMO the rules should state "if you attack without a weapon equiped ".

Wait a sec....So you are saying that one fist can get his "bonus" hook attack (1 red + 1 green) that includes his melee power dice? SO from a base starting game he gets a weapon attack, or maybe 2, then does his bonus attack that is 1 red, 1 green, and 2 black?

If so, I have been playing wrong, only using the 1 red and 1 green when making the bonus attack.

Bravo McWilley said:

Yup. Its considered a Melee attack with the hook so he gets to add his Melee trait dice to the attack. Makes up for him only being able to use 1 handed Melee weapons.

StarBurn said:

Why? Because whacking a monster with a staff or a sling is enormously less practical than bashing them with a shield? Because it would be totally overpowered to have the option of either making an unarmed attack or attacking with your equipped weapon without spending movement points? Because you usually play as overlord and therefore any remotely ambiguous rules issue that comes before you always has to be ruled as much in the overlord's favor as possible?

Come on, if you're going to suggest a change in the rules, you could at least give a supporting reason.

sry to bring this back up, but i have one more question. Someone mentioned that players could choose to make an unarned attack using 1 red dice. I assume that they also get thier power dice added to this also?

Bravo McWilley said:

BEst of my knowledge it does, since its considered a Melee attack.

As impossible as this scenario is, here's why I think starburn wanted it "When they don't have a weapon equipped"

If a ranged character is fighting an imaginary monster with +10 armor vs ranged, then why should they be able to put their bow in their backpack and punch it in the mouth?

As Written, having the weapon in the backpack would keep a player from making an unarmed attack since the player DOES have a weapon. Highly circumstancial and this rule change would probably never get remembered on the 1/1000000000 chance something like this would happen but there's potential there. It'd definantly add a couple pts toward playing a diverse character

Uh...the context of his remark makes that reasoning highly unlikely. I just explained that I had made an unarmed attack while I had an actual weapon equipped, implying that I read the rule as "if you attack without using a weapon," and his rewording would prevent you from making an unarmed attack unless that was the only option available to you.

I didn't think anyone would've read the current rule as "if you attack without possessing a weapon." Preventing someone from making an unarmed attack because they have a dagger in their backpack would be incredibly bizarre.

Regardless, the rules already allow you to choose which weapon to attack with when you have more than one option, and everyone in the thread seems to agree that you should be able to make an unarmed attack without having an empty hand, so saying that you should be able to make unarmed attacks while wielding a shield but not while wielding a weapon doesn't seem to have any basis that I can see, either in RAW, balance considerations, or thematic considerations.

I do believe the intent of the rules is to allow the Hero to choose to use his weapon, or just use his fist. This is how it plays in Doom (and yes, I know they are different games, sue me ) and I believe the same intention is used here. As with almost all nit-picky things in Descent, use common sense. In a fight, can a hero opt to not use the sword and just bunch? I think so, like Mad Martigan did in Willow

As for One Fist, we play that his "fist" is replaced with his hook, so whenever he does a "fist" melee attack, he uses the Red+Green+MeleeTrait. Just makes sense. Why would One Fist punch when he can give someone a left hook? Note, we use the "common sense" rule with the OL too, so not one side is nitpicky against another.

My main question is are the Trait Power Dice optional or do they have to be used with every attack?

-shnar

shnar said:

They are not optional. From page 4 of the FAQ:

Q: Can heroes willingly target and hit other heroes?
A: Yes, although they must roll their full compliment of dice...

Once again, and I may be oversimplifying this again, this is one of those abilities where the character and the ability explain the useage:

One Fist has one hand for the purpose of equipping items...the other hand is a hook. His bonus melee attack, rolling 1 Red and 1 Green, is the use of this hook. Therefore, he can:

1) Attack with his equipped one-handed weapon (either once or twice, depending on action declared) and his hook.

2) Attack with his unarmed fist (holding shield or not, based on 'shield bash' ruling) and his hook.

In regards to the whole 'weapon equipped' unarmed attack:

If a hero attacks without a weapon, he attacks with his fists. This is a melee attack that grants 1 red die and has no special abilities. This suggests to me that:

1) An unarmed attack is an attack with empty hands (fists).

2) If you have a 2-handed weapon equipped, you have no empty hands to attack with.

3) If you have two 1-handed weapons equipped, you have no empty hands to attack with.

4) If you have a 1-handed weapon equipped and nothing in the other hand , you can choose whether to use the weapon or unarmed.

5) If you have a 1-handed weapon and a shield equipped, you have no empty hands to attack with, unless group consensus or house rule allows 'shield bash' unarmed attacks.

True, but there is some confusion...page 10 of the Rules of Play (basic set) states, "In addition, the hero may (empasis is mine) add one or more of the black power dice to his roll, depending on his traits."

The use of the word 'may' suggests that the hero can, if they desire (although I'll admit that I'm not sure of a circumstance where it would be desired), not utilize their full complement of trait power dice on an attack roll.

As this subject was brought up in conjunction with targeting another hero, I assume that the question was based on 'pulling' the attack, attempting to limit damage done to the targeted hero. In reality, the subject is moot (unless there are abilities that trigger off the number of power dice rolled); the attacking character can elect to not spend the surges, and consider all enhancement rolls as range. I'm wondering if the FAQ is referring to the actual weapon dice...if you're targeting another hero and wielding Soulbiter, you can't choose to leave out the green dice to 'pull' the attack.

I'd like to see a definitive answer regarding the trait dice...the FAQ page 4 and the Rules seem to be in opposition. Either that, or you can choose to not use trait dice when attacking a monster, but if you're attacking a hero, it's all or nothing.

To the best of my knowledge, the FAQ ruling overrides the rulebook. You always have to rolls the dice you have.