Wow this discussion seem to be spiraling out of control - calm down folks, we are all here to have fun and exchange ideas, no need to get personal just because you disagree with someone even if you happen think their arguments are off the mark or even outright pointless.

Here is where Im coming from: I have played a couple of SW campaigns before, but Im not really ultra versed in the universe however taht doesnt stop me from having an oppinion My impression from the original SW movies reflect the PCs as mid-high level characters figthing and often running from Stromtroopers …only really significantly outclassing them in the final movie. A key thing to keep in mind here is that the PCs are well ….PCs!!! My impression from stormtroopers is that they should be henchmen, but in general pretty **** good henchmen … (yes yes, lets have grap garrison, though would these actually be stormtroopers? - regular and special elite versions by all means!) being hencmen but pretty competent should allow them to challange beginning characters one-on-one, be a threat in numbers to mid level … and be pretty outclassed by higher level characters.

In my view the greatest in SW is when you can get to feel like the original heroes … and to feel really heroic means doign something thats not a walk in the park … so just like PCs should not ruitinely blow up Deathstars …winning a fight against a major detachment of (elite) stormtroopers should also feel like a major accomplishment …

AluminiumWolf said:

Its fair to have your own views on how SW should play - but seriously dude, regarding Soviet Union or weapons … you seem pretty clueless, the Russians were in the 70s fully up to par with the vest …behind in some areas, ahead in others …and their conscript army was by all indications no worse or better trained than most NATO or US conscript armies - and their special forces were if anything better than what the west had at the time. While its true that the T72 was built to be 'cheap' …just like the F-16 btw that didnt mean it was a bad tank (just like the T34 was in reality a much better value-for-money tank than the Tiger) … and you have to keep in mind that there was a distinct qualitative difference between the export models and the ones kept domestically (atleast according to Tanknet).

As a side note the M1 Abrams didnt enter service until a decade later …and current version costs around US$8.58 million vs. the T72s current cost of US$1–2 million

I lean toward stormtroopers being better rather than worse. I could tell you why I feel that way, hell, i could back it up with sources that would shatter other arguments, but what's more important now? Civility. Let Aluminium disagree with you without attacking him for doing so. He's attacked no one here. Just shared an opinion. I disagree with him too, but I don't find it intolerable that he doesn't have the same view as I do.

how bout we all pretend we're face to face. Huh? As an exercise?

History has shown that even the "best" trained armies can be held off by smaller guerrilla forces for varying periods of time. Those guerrilla forces vary in their training, but they all usually have one thing on their side which is a belief in what they are fighting for. Stormtroopers are an amalgamation of various sources; Roman Legions, Nazi soldiers, Russian War machine, etc. There is no reason they can't be run as one-shot, kicks & giggles minions as well as for a more serious enemy. Either one fits. The sources from which they are derived have been shown in both extremes as well as everything in between. It all depends on what type of game you want to run.

AluminiumWolf said:

Depends on who writes the songs. As the saying goes, history is written by the winners. Afghanis back in the 80s were noble guerrilla fighters getting help from the US fighting the good fight against the Russian War Machine. I love watching their representation in Rambo III considering the state of affairs today. Now those same Afghanis are considered the devil while the incredible US Noble Army protects the rest of the world (and yes I know the US is not the only army there, just the most visible) from their terrorism. And I am sure that many Afghanis consider their warriors to be the noble ones, whether fighting the Russian or US War machine.

Play your stormtroopers the way you want. There is no right or wrong except as it affects your own group. It is up to you to describe them as befits your version of the Star Wars universe.

Personally I look at them as being like marines (first in) with some Army ranger influences. Not on par with SEALs or JTF-2, but definitely better than your average Imperial Army or Navy soldier, which, I believe fits into the description of them for the most part.

mouthymerc said:

But a common complaint on modern wargaming forums is that no one wants to collect/paint/play the insurgents. A Star Wars game where everyone wants to be the Imperials is doing it wrong. h

All politics aside, if one side has high tech weapons, armour, equipment and training and the other are farmers with crap guns, and you need to paint 10 of the regulars and 500 of the crap guys, people are going to gravitate towards the regulars. They always do. h

RonRamron said:

I tend to agree with this statement, and have never said an ill word towards the guy, himself. However, looking over his posts in this and other threads he is ALWAYS causing some kind of conflict with his shall we say, atypical view points. Again, I don't suggest this is a reason to use personal attacks on the dude, but "Come on, Man?" (Football reference there) at some point someone has to call a troll a troll. It's either that, or the cat is on some wild drugs!

A-Wolf, No offense intended, but you're ideas/posts are somewhat um….. erratic. Given that you have these eccentric concepts about every aspect of this game, and star wars itself, it's a wonder how anyone playing with you is able to recognize the setting as star wars. You completely bastardize the entire omniverse. Your reasoning is exceptionally hard to fallow, which is what leads to the aggressive replies to them. I mean people try and debate with you, and you spit further gibberish that follows no logical pattern. (see the jedi arguments, or this one, for prime examples). Anyway, I'm sure you're a nice person, you don't attack others, nor take the bate when they attack you, and I applaud you for such, but I'm really left wondering if your cheese is anywhere near your cracker. Again, no offense, just my take… Sorry if it comes off wrong.

AluminiumWolf said:

No they are not. To each their own. Considering your view I wouldn't say you are wrong even if it isn't something I would run. An Imperial game could be quite interesting. Not all the threats they had to deal with were good and wholesome.

AluminiumWolf said:

One man's crap is another's gold. And are you really using painting miniatures to make your argument?

Look, the thing is, appearances due to an unfortunate shift in the geopolitical situation aside, the Empire is not the US, and the Rebels are not Al-Qaeda. h

The image you want is that the Empire is Al-Qaeda if it has formed its Caliphate and invaded the US to impose Sharia Law. The Rebels are then the militas that have formed to fight them off. h

The Stormtroopers are not Seal Team 6. Those guys have gone underground and formed the core of the Rebel Commandos. The Stormtroopers are instead the Iraqi Republican Guard. If there is anyone, ANYONE in the western world who doesn't think they could take ten Republican Guard dudes with one hand tied behind their backs I would be quite surprised. h

This…

Boehm said:

…followed immediately by this….

Boehm said:

….equals this….

Well, a couple of things:

As a serious question, if we are playing in a game where the Caliphate has invaded the US and the players are part of the resistance (in a unit called the Wolverines) who are about to launch an attack on a stadium currently serving as a detention center filled with women who have demonstrated the ability to read and are about to be executed for their crime, which is guarded by the elite Caliphate Guard, how would people like the Caliphate Guard and the Wolverines to be rated for quality? h

AluminiumWolf said:

That depends. If you are going for a cinematic unrealistic but fun game, then the Wolverines would have every chance to pull off a rescue. If it is more realistic, then in all likelihood they would fail against a trained force.

As a not so serious question, if we are playing in a game where the US has invaded Afghanistan and the players are part of the resistance (in a unit called the Desert Snakes) who are about to launch an attack on a building currently serving as a detention center filled with men who have demonstrated the ability to make bombs and are about to be executed for their crime, which is guarded by the elite Marines, how would people like the Marines and the Desert Snakes to be rated for quality?

I've seen Roman Legionaires, German soldiers, US soldiers and Russian soldiers all portrayed in both good and bad lights and different skill levels. How you want to portray your soldiers is dependant on the game you want to run. There is no right or wrong way, only the most fun way for you and your own.

Corradus said:

Might have something to do if he is posting from a phone or some other hand-held device.

mouthymerc said:

Well, this is Star Wars… (The h is both a means to try to get around the forum software deleting whole lines of texts if you press backspace at the end of a line, and hopefully a reminder that whoever runs this forum should fix their ****.) h

AluminiumWolf said:

Which means nothing because, as we can see, many people have different views on how stormtroopers should be run. They are as able or inept as you or anyone else want them to be. The movies, literature, video games, etc. all portray them at different levels of ability so there is, really, no baseline. Only the one you create.

$hamrock said:

Be that as it may, several of his posts in this topic are bordering on offensive. I certainly hope I'm not the only one that thinks this.

Cyril said:

I would argue that Star Wars was never very polite to The British Empire or The Soviet Union. Or the Nazis, but they totally deserved it. Al-Q are just the modern bogeyman equivalent. h

[ADMIN: Edited for content. These forums are for the discussion of Star Wars: Edge of the Empire Beta and related materials. Please refrain from remarks likely to incite unrelated flame wars.]

Sturn said:

Yeah I noticed that myself afterwards I guess I feel stronger about military facts than SW … what can I say Im a grognard.. Im sorry Aluminumwolf, that was uncalled for … we SHOULD try to keep the tone civil

Well to get back on topic….

Technically, any group of minions is going to be too powerful if run in too large a group. 400 guys with pointy sticks would be quite a handful, even if they all had 1 brawn and 1 agi. Even starting out a kilometer away, they would likely be rolling a couple hundred dice on their attack when they finally got in range.

Put your Stormtroopers in groups of 2 and they wont be nearly as nasty as if they were groups of 5, even if it were the same total number. Same thing applies to any other minions tho. A group of thugs is alot nastier as one minion as opposed to several.

korjik said:

Exactly. It's a tried and true rule in the ORE that mobs get less dangerous the fewer of them there are as far as combat goes. A couple of guys surrounding you is a lot less worrisome than a dozen guys surrounding you.

It also comes down to how the GM is playing the Stormtroopers. If he's utilizing smart combat tactics, having them seek cover, using autofire and stuff like that, they're going to be much, much deadlier than if they're simply running into a room and standing there blasting away like they were controlled by the AI in any number of video games.

*shrug*

I personally love that they're written at the level they are at. It fits with everything we've seen written about these guys, and the reactions that the rest of the galaxy has to them. They're dangerous, especially when they have the strength of their comrades in arms behind them. But at the same time, a well placed shot from a blaster rifle or a heavy blaster pistol can take them out of the fight. Their armor is going to make sure they can survive at least a couple of shots from smaller weapons.

I think the real issue is that for this game, they're just right. We aren't dealing with the epic heroes just yet, we're dealing with the Firefly/Serenity heroes. Which is not to say they're useless, but it does mean they're more likely to be worried by the footsoldiers of the Empire that is growing and making their lives increasingly more difficult. Having Stormies as enemies to be feared both for what they represent and their skill level, to me, is a perfect fit for Edge of the Empire.

AluminiumWolf said:

They aren't. The Rebels have epic destiny on their side, with Luke, and Han, and Leia. They are the elite of the Rebellion, but on average, we see an awful lot of Rebellion troops die in the films. Most of the rebels probably aren't trained in the military. The stormtroopers are. This doesn't make them the elite. The heroes of the story are elite. They're the ones that the stormtroopers struggle with, and they're the ones who can fell a stormtrooper in a single shot.

All of which is a little moot, as this isn't a game about the Rebellion. I look to Firefly and Serenity as a kind of "See? This is what the game is about. It's Firefly set in Star Wars!" kinda thing. If you disagree, then you're probably blind, but the point is the heroes of this game are fringers. In Firefly, the heroes are the ones who are always getting kicked in the guts by the universe, and picking themselves back up to run away and fight another day. They're the heroes of Edge of the Empire, too, *as I see it.*

So in this game, stormtroopers need to pose a threat. They should be scary both in principle and practice…

Armenius Orson Carrick said: