Are Stormtroopers too Lethal?

By Barefoottourguide, in Star Wars: Edge of the Empire Beta

Posted at

Possibly that is a less loaded question - how would people rate the relative troop qualities of Browncoats and Purplebellies?

--
Look, I do think that we are going to have to do something to make the Rebels cool and the Empire appropriately loathsome in a post 9/11 world.
+++++Well, my buddy was over in Afghanistan and they are all Star Wars nerds in his unit so they referred to the Taliban as "rebel scum". One of them almost slipped out in front of a reporter.+++++
--
We need to get people to re-connect with their Inner Rebel.
So the Empire are bad guys. Whoever it is that you most despise, they are the Empire. They represent everything wrong in the world, and they have taken over. It is time to make things right.
As Greg Costikyan, author of the first edition of the D6 Star Wars roleplaying game said in Price of Freedom, his roleplaying game of resisting Soviet oppression in occupied America:-
priceoffreedom.jpg
+++++A Note to Liberal Readers
Okay, we know that some of you are going to be uncomfortable with the premise of THE PRICE OF FREEDOM. We didn't do the game to offend your sensibilities; we did it to give you an enjoyable roleplaying experience. And we see no reason why you shouldn't enjoy the game without compromising your political beliefs, whatever they may be. Here's why:
You, personally, don't have to believe that the average Soviet soldier is a bloodthirsty killer, or that the Soviet Union could occupy the United States in the next five years. (We don't, either.) THE PRICE OF FREEDOM is a fantasy roleplaying game in the true sense of the word; its fantasy is the right-wing nightmare that America is delivered into the hands of her enemies.
You don't have to approve of secret agents blowing up everybody they take a dislike to to enjoy a James Bond film…
Think of the game as The Lord of the Rings meets William F. Buckley: The Evil Empire of the East…uh, that is, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics…masses its troops to assault the last remaining Citadel of the Sons of the Morning…oops, the last bastion of liberty in an unfree world. Only you stand between the forces of darkness and world dominion; you, the valiant freedom fighter, must strike a blow for liberty. The question isn't whether or not such a thing could happen, but whether or not you could enjoy pretending it has.
Roleplaying works best when everybody involved suspends disbelief and lives the fantasy. The world of THE PRICE OF FREEDOM is remarkably easy to enter:
You play yourself or someone you could reasonably expect to meet on the street. No problem imagining yourself in either of those roles.
The setting is modern-day America. Again, no imagination problem.
You defend your home, your family, and your friends from real enemies. You and yours are not being threatened by aliens from Proxima Centauri, or some other hypothetical creation from the pages of fiction, but by the armed forces and secret police of America's sworn rival. They'll kick your dog, they'll reduce Baskin-Robbins' 31 flavors to 3, they'll cancel Moonlighting…and then they'll take away your basic human rights. But only if you let them.
That's saying it flippantly, but forget the politics: THE PRICE OF FREEDOM is a dramatic game. Villains are destroying you. They're taking your house, your car, your VCR; they're threatening your family; they're teaching lies to your children. The situation is so intolerable that the only possible response is rage.
We could have done it with a right-wing coup in Washington or mind-devouring alien spore pods -- but a Soviet takeover is far more powerful precisely because the Soviets have been our antagonists for so long.
Rage is important; the fun part of the game is its release. You can see yourself grabbing a deer rifle and heading for the hills. You can see yourself as a bloodthirsty Rambo, charging through all adversity, crying "Do svidanya, tovarisch" as you machinegun down rank upon rank of the godless Communists who wish to destroy the American way.
That catharsis is fun. Let's face it, we'd all like to blow things up. We'd all like to crush our enemies. Fortunately, society forbids us to act on those impulses. THE PRICE OF FREEDOM releases those emotions. And as a result, it can be a gas.
Blow it up! Blow it up real good! Eat hot death, Commie dog!
That's the ticket!+++++
1300260947.jpg
freedom_fighters_fan_art_by_pino44io-d4i
freedom_fighter_by_glayman-d4189on.png
free7x16x10x03xps2c.jpg
jtff092503_FF_FreedomFighter_26.jpg
1535815-hero_.jpg
And here, as reference, is a character roster for a battle scenario in Price of Freedom. The Freedom Fighters ('The Rebels') are trying to blow up an arms dump guarded by the Soviets ('The Stormtroopers'). Notice that there are more Soviets, but that the Freedom Fighters have better stats.
price01.jpg

Posted at

For me this debate is really a moot point. It doesn't matter if you think stormtroopers should be chaff or elite soldiers the fact is they provide a minion template that is a little bit stronger than the others listed. If you think stormtroopers should be the easiest enemies the group can fight then, use one of the weaker templates (ie 99% of the other minions) and call them your stormtroopers. If you want stormtroopers to be a bit tougher then you have them. Making every minion statistically the same would be bad design.

Having the difference between the stormies and the other minions gives you something a little more challenging to throw at your group as they get stronger, what you call them is entirely up to you.

Posted at

AluminiumWolf said:

Can we at least agree that the average Rebel Soldier should be better than the average Stormtrooper? h

Cause seriously, when it is The Elite vs. The Horde, everyone want to be The Eilte. So the bad guys had better be The Horde. h

It's a standard cinematic trope that bad guy henchmen are always better than good guy henchmen but are still not as good as the heroes.

So it goes like this:

Heroes

Named Bad Guys - Darth Vader, Jar-Jar Binks

Named Good Guys - Mace Windu, Yoda

Bad Guy Henchmen - Storm Troopers

Good Guy Henchmen - Rebel Troops

The only time when it doesn't work this way is when the Heroes do something to disrupt it. (like leading the good guy henchmen).

Posted at

Here is the thing..

The movies have made Storm Troopers a recycled enemy -when in fact most players would encounter low level troops for the most part, unless they screw up big or attack a heavily guarded location.

Storm Troopers are the fight arm of the Empire, but the PDFs, Local Militia, Conscripts, "Police", and other enforcers would be the standard enemy.

Storm Troopers should not be the first thing you throw at them, and if it is - then they should have a hard time taking down Flash Cloned, War Bred, and Highly Trained troops.

There is a massive disconnect between how people see the Storm Troopers, even later when they may need to recruit - they don't just toss armor on people.

It would be similar to Pairing an average Drug Runner against your average squad of law enforcement officers, or a small squad of marines.

Think about it.

Posted at

GG Mark Barry said:

It would be similar to Pairing an average Drug Runner against your average squad of law enforcement officers, or a small squad of marines.

Think about it.

Like I say though, you want the Rebels to be the cool side, so you are looking at criminals like the bank robbers in Heat or Public Enemies. They are greatly outnumbered by the cops, but win by having superior skills and heavier armaments. Because in the SAS vs. Terrorists game, everyone wants to play the SAS. (For instance, in the Drug Runner vs. Marines game, which side do you imagine yourself playing?) h

As another example, in Games Workshops LOTR minis game, a Goblin is worth 4pts, an Orc 5pts, a Man 6pts a Dwarf 8pts and an Elf 9pts. h

Posted at

AluminiumWolf said:

Like I say though, you want the Rebels to be the cool side, so you are looking at criminals like the bank robbers in Heat or Public Enemies. They are greatly outnumbered by the cops, but win by having superior skills and heavier armaments. Because in the SAS vs. Terrorists game, everyone wants to play the SAS. (For instance, in the Drug Runner vs. Marines game, which side do you imagine yourself playing?) h

As another example, in Games Workshops LOTR minis game, a Goblin is worth 4pts, an Orc 5pts, a Man 6pts a Dwarf 8pts and an Elf 9pts. h

Of course, I'd rather be the side destined to win - that's on the GM and Players for creativity - but think about it further.

Drug Runner vs Marines - Marines win, but the Drug Runner was part of a larger cartel, the cartel has hired guns who have done it just a long, if not longer. Suddenly the Marines have a real Obstacle.

The problem is I think most people are assuming that Storm Troopers are the lowest level lackey the Empire has. They are meant to be elite. If you want to toss you players against something simple, toss them against a squad of PDF style shock troops. If you want to challenge them, send them against the Empires "Best of the Best"

If you nerf the Storm Trooper, what does the Empire have left? You have to start relying on lightsaber wielding sith, or uber trained assassins - which will eventually sour the flavor of the story. The Empire wasn't a galactic threat just because of the quantity of these troops - they were lethal, that is why they were feared.

It's the skewed perception thing again; it's looking at them as cannon fodder. They were formidable even to the characters in the movies; they tended to avoid them rather than fight head on - you never saw Han Solo gun down 12 storm troopers by himself, and if your character does in a game - without any real difficulty - you're playing on Easy mate…

Posted at

+++++Of course, I'd rather be the side destined to win+++++
I dunno. They sell a lot more Nazi toy soldiers than Russians or Americans. And especially Waffen SS. And not only are they Nazis, or even SS, they lost and lost hard. (And I am told at WW2 cosplay/reenactment events, people tend to divide evenly between those dressed as Waffen SS and Easy Company paratroopers.) h
Similarly, Americans in Vietnam. Now, admittedly, the Americans are the home side there, but they also lost. h
Also, French are very popular in the Napoleonic Wars. Especially the Imperial Guard. They lost as well. h
In the end, to wargamers, it seems it doesn't matter who wins or loses, but that the kill ratio is noticeably stacked in your favour. h
Look, fundamentally, if someone made a 40k style wargame where Stormtroopers had the combat power of modern US Marines, and Rebels the fighting prowess of Afghani Insurgents, would anyone here actually collect and paint a Rebel Army?

Posted at

Or, in short, when was the last time you heard a good guy say something like 'well, we have them outnumbered, but they are way better at this than we are…'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8IqqwfgRoA

Posted at

Aluminum Wolf I think everyone who has been following this thread understands your personal opinion 10-fold over now. No more need for added allusions, links, pictures, or charts. We get it. If you can not grasp that players may actually desire to be regular folks with mediocre weaponry battling against elite Stormtroopers, then perhaps Deathwatch is the game for you instead of attempting to change the Star Wars universe for your personal style?


AluminiumWolf said:

I dunno. They sell a lot more Nazi toy soldiers than Russians or Americans. And especially Waffen SS. And not only are they Nazis, or even SS, they lost and lost hard.

Care to back this up with some statistics from someplace? I don't know of any but my own personal experiences with toy soliders. Myself and my friends' collections were completely dominated by US soldiers. I don't recall anyone having a large collection of Nazis, just a few perhaps to be used as, "bad guys". You are going to have to show me some toy retailer statistics to convince me that Nazi soldiers, "sell a lot more", then American soldiers. If you are using the world market as your reference (not just the US or Russia), then a large number of Nazi sales may not be due to prefering to play with them over others. Toy armies need bad guys to fight against and in recent history of a large number of countries the bad guys were Nazis. British boys playing with their soldiers probably have some Nazi bad guys to fight against. Same goes for US boys, Russian, French, etc, etc. It's not because most of those boys think the Nazis are uber cool.
The Tantive IV is being assaulted by Stormtroopers at the start of Episode IV. Would that scene have been more enjoyable if the small group of rebel defenders had mowed down countless mook Stormtroopers before they eventually captured the ship? No. George zoomed in on the rebel's faces to show their fear. We anticipated what was coming through that door after hearing ominous noises above. We loved those heroic rebels for overcoming their fears and standing and fighting against elite troops. I think many players of Star Wars dream of the same encounters, hoping to turn the tables this time while yelling in excitement, "Remember the Tantive!". Don't ignore the movies and make those Stormtroopers a horde of mook goblins. It will take away from the joy and challenge of defeating them.
Posted at

I mean wargaming miniatures, not actual toy soldiers. Toy soldiers is what they are though. h
I would say that the fact that the Imperials show up in their big ship at the start of ANH to show that the rebels, with their tiny little ship, are the underdogs. There are, what, ten rebels in the corridor scene? How many Stormtroopers do you think are stacked up on the other side of that door? Of course they are scared. h
Similarly, how many Star Destroyers are there in the fleet that jumps in to assault Hoth? Again, the rebels are massively outnumbered That is why the rebels scarper.
Plus Ewoks. h
But as to changing Star Wars… Star Wars is a story about the triumph of the the rag tag Viet Cong over the squares with the crew cuts in the US Army. Changing it to be a tale of the triumph of Tier One special forces operators over untrained insurgents is a massive change. Total reversal of the intent of the story in fact. h
It honestly wouldn't surprise me that 'The Hero With A Thousand Faces' says something about how The Enemy is always a faceless mass of lower life forms that seem to come in an unending horde. h
And Star Wars is far more Mythic Heroes Journey than it is a celebration of the advantages of a powerful military-industrial complex. h

Posted at

………….I tried.

Posted at

Well, I feel strongly that Star Wars draws a lot on myth, and in particular the myth of the citzen militia seen in, well, that price of freedom roleplaying game.

Now, it isn't really my period, but I think the tale of British Regulars vs. Colonial Militas was often of Johnny Lobster discharging his musket in to the backs of fleeing colonials, but I doubt that is how the story gets told.
So while it might be 'realistic' for Stormtroopers to be rock hard dudes straight out of Call of Duty: Modern Warfare III or Ghost Recon Future Soldier or Medal of Honor: Warfighter or any of the other modern military shooters, or Zero Dark Thirty, or what have you, man oh man is this not that story.
Posted at

It should be noted that I am worrying about trying to play an insurgent against a 'realistic' Imperial military machine ending up looking more like:-

more_accurate.png

Than Star Wars. I don't wanna sit around pretending to be a Taliban dude, and then get smoked by a space hellfire missile fired from a space predator drone in orbit. I wanna be the cool kind of rebel, like the guys in Price of Freedom. Or Star Wars.

Posted at
I guess another example would be Independence Day. Y'know 'Welcome To Earth' Independence Day.


I would have thought that the experience of fighting 'realistic' advanced alien invaders would be more like that of an Iraqi infantryman facing the armies of the Coalition of the Willing than Independence Day. You are not facing an enemy that stands in full view of you, lets you shoot all your guns at it, then pauses while you react in awe that your guns had no effect on it, then slowly starts chasing you at a leisurely pace so you can escape to inject a virus in to their mainframe.


No. They have sensors that can see you when you can't see them. They are far more mobile than you are. And have better communications. And they have been preparing for this all their lives, and learned from people who prepared all their lives. And they will use all these advantages against you without mercy. You will probably never even be aware of the enemy that kills you, and even if you wanted to run, they can run faster than you and you don't know which direction is away from them anyway.


And they have probably injected Stuxnet in to your mainframes years ago.
Posted at

You know, this conversation Aluminum Wolf is having with everyone is interesting as hell to watch.

First of all, I know you all find him tiresome, but honestly let the man speak. Maybe he's inflammatory, maybe he sounds like a broken record, but he's not hurting anyone, and he makes some good points (40000 times). If you're that annoyed, well, that's what God made the scroll-down button for. It's not like he's in your living room with his feet up on yer coffee table.
As for the Stormies debate, see, it's weird, because what I seem to be seeing is an argument between the people who want their Star Wars games to be pulp - to be the Buck Rogers serials that Lucas patterned the movies after - and those who want something a little grittier. Those who want Star Wars to "grow up" and presumably be a tad more dangerous. Neither side is wrong, but Aluminum Wolf isn't entirely right either.
MOST players won't want to be Rebels if they know it's futile, no matter what they do. But sometimes it's fun to play a game when you know yer knackered, but it's about what you do in the meantime. You know sooner or later a Star Destroyer is gonna drop out of hyperspace and glass your planet, but in the meantime, yer gonna make the Empire pay for every last inch they take.
Sometimes being destined to lose is cool as hell. It's all about how you run it.
But if you don't wanna nerf the Stormies, use Imperial Army Regulars. Problem solved.
Posted at

Corradus said:

First of all, I know you all find him tiresome, but honestly let the man speak.

Who isn't letting him speak? I mean who can really do that unless they are a mod? In fact if you count the posts he has spoken the most by far of anyone in this thread. That is the point. He is repeating the same thing over and over. It would be grand if his many posts were rebuttals or answers to questions of others, but he rarely seems to respond to anyone's input, just repeats with yet more examples ad naseum.

This was an interesting topic for me. I've learned others' viewpoints. Aluminum Wolf's point is one of those I learned pages ago. But is it being repeated over and over and driving others away with boredom killing the thread?

Just my one 2 cred chips of course.

Posted at

Sturn said:

Corradus said:

First of all, I know you all find him tiresome, but honestly let the man speak.

Who isn't letting him speak? I mean who can really do that unless they are a mod? In fact if you count the posts he has spoken the most by far of anyone in this thread. That is the point. He is repeating the same thing over and over. It would be grand if his many posts were rebuttals or answers to questions of others, but he rarely seems to respond to anyone's input, just repeats with yet more examples ad naseum.

This was an interesting topic for me. I've learned others' viewpoints. Aluminum Wolf's point is one of those I learned pages ago. But is it being repeated over and over and driving others away with boredom killing the thread?

Just my one 2 cred chips of course.

Yeah, sorry, I should have clarified - by "let him speak" what I meant was "stop telling him to shut up". And before you protest that you weren't, yeah, you were. Perhaps not in so many words, but that's what you wanted and (from what I gather) what you still want.

Yes, he repeats himself. So what? *points to your scroll button* Thereyago. Rotate that towards you and it's all over. Problem solved.

Thanks for the 2 credits though. I could use a soda. Want one while I'm at it? You look like a Cola guy. You a cola guy?

Posted at

Corradus said:

Yeah, sorry, I should have clarified - by "let him speak" what I meant was "stop telling him to shut up". And before you protest that you weren't, yeah, you were. Perhaps not in so many words, but that's what you wanted and (from what I gather) what you still want.

No I wasn't. Please refrain from telling me what I said and instead go read what I actually said. I've actually asked him several questions. You know, questions, those things that ask for answers (using your condescending tone there). In fact I actually asked him a question in my post right before your post saying we were asking him to, "shut up". Not sure how that could be interpreted as, "shut up", the reason I retorted to your accusations. Stop repeating yourself? Sure in a nut shell I said that. At the same time I was asking him to answer OTHER things so no I wasn't telling him to shut up in fact I was asking him to respond, just please not with the same repeat.

Aluminum Wolf seems to be a big boy. I think he can defend himself fine. That is what I was asking him to do actually. I'm still waiting for his resource to support his claims. Perhaps you want to jump in to defend him again and go find those stats for me? I'll give you 2 more cred chips.

Posted at

Isn't the new Adversary system going to fix this for us? That and the minions we already have? GMs will easily be able to make their Stormtroopers as inept or elite as they want them to using only the RAW. I haven't read the Adversary update yet, only read what others have posted about it.

Posted at

AluminiumWolf said:

Body armour that can stop a rifle bullet has only been a thing for the last ten years or so, so in the ninties, I'd swear Stormtrooper Armour was seen more a liability than an advantage. Certainly in Star Wars D6 I percieved the 1D penalty to dexterity to not be outweighed by the 1D bonus to strength (I wonder if I was right). In D6, stormtroopers were operating with an effective 1D in Dex, which wasn't good at all.
Unless you mean first edition, I don't think this is correct. In Second edition d6 stormtroopers had 3D in Dex. Of course, as you say, after the penalty for the armour they were rather lacluster. Their armour didn't help them any, as they had lower strength than a standard Imperial Army trooper, resulting in the army trooper being as good, or even better, than a stormtrooper in most cases (they didn't have the immunity to bribery etc though, and didn't have some skills). Rebel troopers on the other hand, were slightly better than either… the Tantive must have had a crew of real second raters going by that.

The Gamesmaster's Guide (or handbook or whatever) is fairly unapologetic about this. They say 1) their aim was to recreate the films, where the heroes fell stormtroopers with abandon (and PC in d6 Star Wars were meant to be the heroes, not just average guys) and 2) they are better than average "normal" (ie non heroic) guys. That is technically true (average for the world was 2D in attributes and 3D in skills, and stormtroopers have at least and usually higher than this in their relevant skills), and they had some decent skill codes (skill level), just the penalties for the armour nerfed most of the important ones. It doesn't hold up so well when comparing to the normal stats for rebel troopers and the like, as they had similar levels of skills (or at least effective skill levels).

If a GM really wanted them to be a serious threat, they were advised that the stats represented an average stormtrooper. If you wanted to have real elite troopers you should boost the stats. Something that also occurred to myself was that by removing the penalty of the armour they suddenly did become a step above normal dudes.

Either way, at least it was better than Saga d20, which while as I find the system quite interesting, rates a police officer as more of a challange than a Stormtrooper. Erm… What?

As far as rebel troopers: quite clearly, the ones on the Tantive at the beginning of Star Wars are massively outclassed by stormtroopers. Either they are so rubbish, or stormtroopers are so amazing, that the troopers are able to get through a defended narrow doorway with 1 (maybe 2) losses. However, I wouldn't judge anything on the performance in the battle of Hoth. There the rebel troopers are just so massively outclassed interms of the equipment (their guns just cannot do anything to the AT-ATs) that they are swept away. As far as I can tell the stormtroopers are only deployed after the rebels are in full retreat, and so have a massive combative and psychological edge on them. I would probably rate the training of the Hoth troopers as being fine, just they were fighting a battle the Rebels didn't want to fight, ie a pitched battle, where their more limited and less sophisticated resources were a crippling factor.

Personally I would rate the Stormtroopers as shock troopers. Competent, and good at their role, facing the enemy at close ranges, where psychology is as much as a factor as anything else. However, their fanatical loyalty to the Emperor would make them a bit inflexible in thinking. Basically, if you face them in the way they are designed to, in a stand up fight, they will be a serious danger. However, find more unconventional approaches and they should start to get outsmarted… which is exactly the approach the Rebels take, as far as I understand (though for some reason the Empire does essentially devolve into outright mookdom when it comes to the space battles, with inferior starfighters crewed by inferior pilots).

"That depends. If you are going for a cinematic unrealistic but fun game, then the Wolverines would have every chance to pull off a rescue. If it is more realistic, then in all likelihood they would fail against a trained force."

- That film pains me (as much as I find it a total laugh)… putting aside the complete nuttery that is the basic story of the film, a handful of teenagers are only finally defeated when they send in a battalion of Spetznatz, and even then they inflict heavy casualties. They shouldn't have been a speed bump in the road for any trained military force…

Posted at

+1 to Borithan. Again, we need a Like button.

Posted at

Sturn said:

Corradus said:

No I wasn't. Please refrain from telling me what I said and instead go read what I actually said. I've actually asked him several questions. You know, questions, those things that ask for answers (using your condescending tone there). In fact I actually asked him a question in my post right before your post saying we were asking him to, "shut up". Not sure how that could be interpreted as, "shut up", the reason I retorted to your accusations. Stop repeating yourself? Sure in a nut shell I said that. At the same time I was asking him to answer OTHER things so no I wasn't telling him to shut up in fact I was asking him to respond, just please not with the same repeat.

Aluminum Wolf seems to be a big boy. I think he can defend himself fine. That is what I was asking him to do actually. I'm still waiting for his resource to support his claims. Perhaps you want to jump in to defend him again and go find those stats for me? I'll give you 2 more cred chips.

No, actually I think what I'll do is call it like I see it. I think there's an awful lot of "No, I didn't use those PRECISE words so that's not what I said" going on by a number of posters on this forum and while that may be something they feel comfortable making use of as a retort, it doesn't mean I am buying it.
You don't always need to say "X" to have said "X". We're all smart enough to know that. And just as you can surmise a condescending tone from my words even though you haven't heard their spoken tenor, so too can I surmise impatience and intolerance in yours.
And yes, Aluminum Wolf is, I am sure a big boy, but that has no bearing on the matter. If he would like me to stop commenting on the impatience and irritated responses that get thrown at him all the time, I will. That's not your call to make. But you know, for all the comments I hear around here (one or two from you, the rest from others) about how his comments just mess waste time and bandwidth, seems to me it wastes more time and bandwidth responding to the comments that seem to irk people so.
Posted at

borithan said:

Body armour that can stop a rifle bullet has only been a thing for the last ten years or so, so in the ninties, I'd swear Stormtrooper Armour was seen more a liability than an advantage. Certainly in Star Wars D6 I percieved the 1D penalty to dexterity to not be outweighed by the 1D bonus to strength (I wonder if I was right). In D6, stormtroopers were operating with an effective 1D in Dex, which wasn't good at all.

…..<my snip>…..

Either way, at least it was better than Saga d20, which while as I find the system quite interesting, rates a police officer as more of a challange than a Stormtrooper. Erm… What?

It's been a while, but I do recall making penciled in adjustments in my WEG books for Stormtroopers. Again, way too weak for what is seen in the movies when fighting against Rebels. The WEG Rebel books, if I recall correctly, made them much better then your average Stormtrooper. I suppose those Rebels were considered the elite of the Rebels though.

In Saga there was a low level and high level Stormtrooper. I didn't like the gaming aspects of this (use this one when you are lower level, use this one when you are higher). The low levels were too weak, the high levels were too strong. I made up my own version that was somewhere in between.

Posted at

borithan said:

- That film pains me (as much as I find it a total laugh)… putting aside the complete nuttery that is the basic story of the film, a handful of teenagers are only finally defeated when they send in a battalion of Spetznatz, and even then they inflict heavy casualties. They shouldn't have been a speed bump in the road for any trained military force…

But if you wanted to make a game that recreated the feel of Red Dawn, you would have to rate the Wolverines as better soldiers than the Soviets. (I assume - it has been a while since I watched it.) h

I also can't help but notice no one has commented on the relative fighting power of Ewoks vs. Stormtroopers… h

As to Nazis being the most popular army, I would have suggested looking at the Flames of War section of your local hobbycraft when they sold it. Half the SKUs were Nazi, and there were five different SKUs of Tiger Tanks. h

I have seen several sculpters on Frothers Unite comment that the first thing you do when making a WWII range is produce Waffen SS, as they will always sell well, and that standard US soldiers are notoriously poor sellers. h

Essentially, Nazis are to WWII what Space Marines are to 40k, and Jedi are to Star Wars. h

Posted at

Or, I think you will get something closer to the intent of Star Wars, if you imagine the game that these guys would make:- h

If they thought their enemy would be these guys:- h