“Garven's pilot ability is not an action”. I agree.

But still, it seems to me that a token represents an action to perform. Since the rule book states that you cannot perform the same action twice in a round, you cannot perform two focus. In the case of the presence of a stress token, which prevent you to perform any action or red maneuver, then Garven will grant a focus token to the stressed pilot … but without the ability for the pilot to use it.

Do I miss something?

DagobahDave said:

Ok, re-focusing on the thread subject, I agree that Garven can give a free focus token to anyone he likes.
The receiver may or may not use it either because he is stressed or has already a focus token.

Like I said before, I think it would have been clearer if the steps were worded differently. It seems to me more intuitive to talk about Acquiring the action token and performing the action (in combat phase) but that is not the wording used by the game designers, so you have to careful about how you use the terms.

Spending a token is not performing the action, according to the way the rules are worded. They happen in different stages of gameplay, and so have different conditions and limitations.

Xhyl said:

Neither of those circumstances will prevent a pilot from spending a focus token.

This is similar to the question of whether Vadar can take Expert Handling and perform two barrel rolls in a turn.

The game distinguishes between actions and effects. Actions have specific effects, but those effects may be duplicated or emulated to a degree by different Actions, or even by abilities that are not actions. Garven's ability is an example of the latter instance. It is an ability that has an effect similar to the effect of the Action Focus. But it is not itself an Action, so the "only 1 action per round" limit does not apply.

Ships currently are specifically limited only to having Target Lock tokens. For all other tokens there is no limit. Stress tokens, for instance, can accumulate on a ship. Since the rules are silent as to any limitation on Focus tokens, I see no reason why different abilities could not result in a ship having more than one Focus token on it.

Agree with kingbobb. As an additional note since there seemed to be some confusion over it earlier in the thread: spending a focus token is never an action.

Sorry, but I’m still not fully convinced, even if I understand very well your point.

It’s just not matching what happens on the board. When a pilot decide to spend an ‘evade’ token, he is actually trying to ‘evade’ at that moment(defense dice roll). The marker is just a reminder, nothing more. When a pilot receives a focus token for free, he is actually given the possibility to ‘focus’ when rolling the attack or the defense dice, his choice. So, in the case of two focus tokens, the pilot could 'focus' twice … which seems furiously the same.

Am I alone? If yes, I give up ; )

After reading all this it seems to me that you only perform actions during the activation phase, so that anything that takes place outside of that phase by would not count as an action. You can SPEND tokens during the combat phase, but there are way to get tokens besides performing actions.

Now, is this what FFG intended? I think they will either have to change the wording on the card or what it means to take an action (including when you can take an action) for it to mean that Gavin cannot give a focus token during the combat phase to someone who already has one from the activation phase. Unless they cop out and simply say it is not ok without any explanation. But, as worded now this makes the most sense to me. Curious to see how FFG rules on this one.

I don't think there's any doubt how they'll rule. Look, don't take this the wrong way. But 80% of the problem is that people have trouble reconciling the terminology of a particular game with their own phrasing. Yes, all of the real action resolves during the combat phase. But there is a distinct reason they worded things the way they did. And I don't think there's any doubt that it was purposeful. Especially when you consider how few actions the Rebels really have to choose from in the first place. Garven's ability would be much less useful if it didn't work this way. Honestly, if you really wanted to you could replace the word 'Action' with 'Bacon' and the word 'spend' with 'fart' if that's how they wanted their terminology to work.

Maybe instead of asking the question of FFG about Garven in specific, it would be better to phrase the question (or an additional question) in the more general: "Outside of special scenario rules (Political Escort, for example), may a ship ever have more than one Focus or Evade Token on it at the same time?". The answer to that would lay the entire debate to rest AND cover the general situation as a whole (in case there are more pilots who can do something similar coming down the pipe).

It seems that half the discussion is about whether or not a ship can have more than one Focus on it at once, so it seems reasonable to ask that since it isn't covered explicitly in the rules.

Just my 2 Creds.

Jim

Emrico, you raise a valid point. But I think this is easily answered by context clues. For example, they went out of their way to make sure it was clear there was no scenario in which you could wind up with multiple target locks held by the same ship, and even worded Dutch correctly to ensure it didn't come up. Yet they made no effort to establish a similar limitation on other tokens. Sometimes I think we outsmart ourselves and manufacture problems by trying to much to get into FFG's heads and see what their intentions were, instead of just operating with what they gave us. Think of it like this: If you were back in high school and going through the lunch line and you were only allowed to (Action) take one dessert by rule…is there any reason once you were at the lunch table that your buddy (Garven) on a diet couldn't give you his?

KarmikazeKidd said:

I definitely understand what you're getting at. The main reasons I am thinking it should be asked (other than just clarification purposes) are:

1) Ships only come with a single focus token and/or a single evade token.

2) The Political Escort scenario explicitly allows the shuttle to have more than one Evade token.

For those two reasons, I think it is definitely worth asking the question as to whether ships are normally allowed to have more than one of each type on them at once. A definitive answer would sort out a lot more potential problems down the road.

Jim

Agreed. Your point about the Escort mission is good. And I do agree that clarification is always preferred. But I don't think your first point about the token packaging is particularly relevant. They didn't give us enough dice in the starter either. And in the case of Garven, you still have enough tokens because the only way you would have two on one pilot is if you took the second off of Garven and placed it on the other ship. So I don't see a conflict there.

Xhyl said:

You need to read the rule book instead of just posting nonsense on here and hoping that someone agrees with it (which is what most people seem to do).

It is unambiguous. There is no rule against having more than one of a token. There is no rule against using more than one of a token. There is no rule about being unable to use tokens or target locks while stressed. Stop making up rules that aren't in the rule book.

You are (poorly) searching for patterns that make sense to you instead of observing what is right in front of you. Unfortunately, this is one of the most common cognitive biases.

ShadowJak said:

While there is no rule to stop you from using more than one focus token, it would do you little good to do so, since spending one changes all FOCUS results for you. Spending two on the same attack is just a waste.

ShadowJak said:

The only token that the rulebook clearly states you can only have one of is the blue target lock token on page 9. There is no such mention of a token being limited to one in any of the other examples. Stress even goes as far as to say: "while a ship has at least one stress token " implying that a ship can have more than one stress token without having to directly state that it can.

kingbobb said:

Why spend two on the same attack? That is a waste. Surely there is nothing stopping you from saving the other focus token for your defense roll?

I think you can receive actions in all four phases. I think this way because of the rule that says you can only do one of the actions per game round. I think what Garven (and Dutch) do are free actions. It doesnt say it, but I beleive thats what the intent was. I think there are allot of hard headed people in this forum. Theres nothing that says this is an action, however, there is nothing that says that it isnt a free action. I play the rebels as much as I can, and I win enough battles with Dutch to know that not giving free target locks to someone who has stress isnt going to lose the game.

Torresse said:

KarmikazeKidd said:

Kid your used to tests and studying for said tests where all the answers your able to study for. When you get out into the real world and start work youll understand that sometimes youll be asked to make a sweet and crunchy sandwich but find no pickles. Some people will say the task cant be done or argue about how the pickles arnt in the house and use cucumbers instead. Others will go out and buy some pickles and make a pickle sandwich. My point is it seems like this makes sense but its not sweet, It seems like its just a token, but I dont think its very fair. I think its like your trying to find all the answers in front of you, but you cant, so you try say you do and claim that other people are illogical but hard headed and illogical are very different. I dont mind how you play your game but as for me and my mates, we will play how we think is fair and meant to be played. Until the GMs decide to make their thoughts known to us, I consider it a major imbalance to do a kiogran turn and still able get a focus and a target lock.

Torresse said:

Also, pickles are gross.

KarmikazeKidd said:

Torresse said:

Considering the limited set of circumstances where this could actually happen, I don't believe it's an "imbalance" at all. You have to have Garven & Dutch within range 1-2, Dutch has to acquire a target lock this round, and Garven has to have spent a focus this round. If someone has been able to set this up intentionally, more power to them and they should reap the reward. If they are able to do it to you continually, you're doing something wrong.

It's like my opinion on the Marksmanship/Cluster Missiles question; there are only two pilots in the game who can use the combo (at present) and it can only be used once per game per pilot. So why not allow the critical for each attack? (Sorry, wrong topic.)

Point being, the rules IMHO allow for epic plays without imbalancing the game.

I reserve the right to be mistaken.

Ziggy posted as I wrote this, but I'll post anyway.

"Night Beast" and Squad Leader are currently the only two cards that specifically mention taking a free action. The fact that the rule book mentions free actions and these cards say "free action" convinces me that Garven's ability does not grant a free action. All it does is take the one token that comes with Garven's ship and gives it to another pilot after Garven spends it.

As for balance, to get a target lock from Dutch and a focus token from Garven onto a third pilot that took a Koiogran turn takes a lot of smart piloting. Also, if you want that pilot to use the target lock and focus in that same turn, he has to be skill 6 or lower. I really don't see how that can be too overpowered. The Rebels are made for teamwork and have abilities that force close-up formation (Wedge, Horton, and Luke being exceptions). The TIEs are great at dividing and conquering because their abilities are mostly solitary (Howlrunner beign the exception since she gives bonuses to other Imps). They can split up and then converge on a single Rebel ship. Given the propensity for teamwork in Rebels and solitary abilities in Imperials, it seems like denying Garven's focus token recipient the ability to use that token because he already has one would be more unbalanced than allowing him to use both. That just seems to me to be the way Rebels were meant to be played.