Can Gavin give a focus token to someone who already has their own focus token?

By El_Tonio, in X-Wing Rules Questions

Posted at

Torresse said:

KarmikazeKidd said:

Torresse said:

I think you can receive actions in all four phases. I think this way because of the rule that says you can only do one of the actions per game round. I think what Garven (and Dutch) do are free actions. It doesnt say it, but I beleive thats what the intent was. I think there are allot of hard headed people in this forum. Theres nothing that says this is an action, however, there is nothing that says that it isnt a free action. I play the rebels as much as I can, and I win enough battles with Dutch to know that not giving free target locks to someone who has stress isnt going to lose the game.

You don't receive actions. You perform them. And the rulebook clearly states that you can only perform actions immediately after moving. Nothing about your reasoning is based on logic. There's a reason free actions are in the rulebook. There's a reason they use this particular term for particular effects and not for others. If it was a free action that's what they would call it. And yes, I think it's quite obvious there are a number of hard headed, illogical people on this forum.

Kid your used to tests and studying for said tests where all the answers your able to study for. When you get out into the real world and start work youll understand that sometimes youll be asked to make a sweet and crunchy sandwich but find no pickles. Some people will say the task cant be done or argue about how the pickles arnt in the house and use cucumbers instead. Others will go out and buy some pickles and make a pickle sandwich. My point is it seems like this makes sense but its not sweet, It seems like its just a token, but I dont think its very fair. I think its like your trying to find all the answers in front of you, but you cant, so you try say you do and claim that other people are illogical but hard headed and illogical are very different. I dont mind how you play your game but as for me and my mates, we will play how we think is fair and meant to be played. Until the GMs decide to make their thoughts known to us, I consider it a major imbalance to do a kiogran turn and still able get a focus and a target lock.

You and your group can do whatever you want to do, but that doesn't change the fact that Actions are performed in the Activation Phase, and free actions (also performed in the Activation phase) are always called free actions on the cards. This is not a free action nor action of any kind. This is the Combat Phase, and in the Combat Phase no actions are performed, but tokens can be spent. Please show me one example of where FFG refers to any action that is performed outside of the Activation Phase. Garven Dreis' card says instead of discarding a token, you can place it on another ship. This action was performed during Garven Dries' Activation Phase. The token is just transferred from one ship to another during the Combat Phase. Please don't confuse receiving a token and performing an action. Performing an action allows you to receive a token. So do some other cards. Stress stops you from performing actions, but there is nothing that says you can't receive a token another way. Maybe we should revisit this thread once the FAQ is released.

Roy

Posted at

drkjedi35 said:

You and your group can do whatever you want to do, but that doesn't change the fact that Actions are performed in the Activation Phase, and free actions (also performed in the Activation phase) are always called free actions on the cards. This is not a free action nor action of any kind. This is the Combat Phase, and in the Combat Phase no actions are performed, but tokens can be spent. Please show me one example of where FFG refers to any action that is performed outside of the Activation Phase. Garven Dreis' card says instead of discarding a token, you can place it on another ship. This action was performed during Garven Dries' Activation Phase. The token is just transferred from one ship to another during the Combat Phase. Please don't confuse receiving a token and performing an action. Performing an action allows you to receive a token. So do some other cards. Stress stops you from performing actions, but there is nothing that says you can't receive a token another way. Maybe we should revisit this thread once the FAQ is released.

Roy

Actually, the rules do not say that actions are only performed during the Activation phase. What they say is that, after executing your planned maneuver, you may take one Action. The rules also say that each pilot may not execute the same action more than once during a game round…not just the Activation Phase, but the whole game round.

However, the rules also say that some abilities and upgrade cards create options that essentially are triggered. If X happens, do/you may do Y. These are not Actions, meaning they cannot be voluntarily performed during the Activation phase. At this time, I don't know of an instance that allows a pilot to take an Action outside of the Activation phase, but that's not to say that there isn't a future card that would create such an option.

At the same time, calling something that is a tiggered ability an Action is not accurate under the rules. Action has a specific meaning within the context of the rules, and no amount of so-called real world crunchiness is going to change that. :)

Posted at

Page 7 or the rule book gives the steps of the Activation Phase. Step 6 is the Perform Action step, just like step 3 is the Execute Maneuver step. This tells me that performing actions is limited to the Activation Phase just as much as executing maneuvers is.

Roy

Posted at

At this time, I don't know of an instance that allows a pilot to take an Action outside of the Activation phase, but that's not to say that there isn't a future card that would create such an option.

Thanks for pointing that out kingbobb.


Reading the rule book :


P8.
"…
If an ability allows a ship to perform a “free action”,
this action does not count as the one action
allowed during the “Perform Action” step.
…"


So, here we can assume that there are other action types that can be performed along with the 'one action for the round' (even at a moment outside of the activation phase).

P9.
"…
Other Actions
Some card abilities include the “Action:” header. A
ship may resolve this ability during its “Perform Action”
step. This counts as that ship’s action for the round.
Card abilities without the “Action:” header may
be resolved when specified on the card and do not
count as the ship’s action. However, a ship cannot
perform the same action more than once
during a single game round (not even when the action
is a “free action”).
…"


Assuming that there is only ONE normal ship’s action for the round either coming from the pilot card action bar or with an "Action:" header, when did the bold part occurs ?


What’s the real intention of this ‘generic’ rule ? (worded like that in a core set rule book, I think that it shouldn’t be considered as a rare or a non-existent case)

Posted at

Gentelmen, it is clear that the game designers DO NOT want ships to be able to LOAD UP on actions during 1 game round. As new ships come out they may also give free actions to ships that DO NOT already have that token on the ships. Rules seem pretty clear-- you cant use , perform, recieve (whatever word you want to use) the same action 2x in a game round. Why hasen't FFG come out yet with these rulings?

Posted at

Budgernaut said:

As for balance, to get a target lock from Dutch and a focus token from Garven onto a third pilot that took a Koiogran turn takes a lot of smart piloting. Also, if you want that pilot to use the target lock and focus in that same turn, he has to be skill 6 or lower.

swarm tactics

Posted at

chris cook said:

Gentelmen, it is clear that the game designers DO NOT want ships to be able to LOAD UP on actions during 1 game round. As new ships come out they may also give free actions to ships that DO NOT already have that token on the ships. Rules seem pretty clear-- you cant use , perform, recieve (whatever word you want to use) the same action 2x in a game round. Why hasen't FFG come out yet with these rulings?

The rules are indeed quite clear: you cannot use the same action twice. The rules are also pretty clear on what an action is. Some things that are not actions: receiving tokens from other sources and using tokens.

Posted at

dbmeboy said:

chris cook said:

Gentelmen, it is clear that the game designers DO NOT want ships to be able to LOAD UP on actions during 1 game round. As new ships come out they may also give free actions to ships that DO NOT already have that token on the ships. Rules seem pretty clear-- you cant use , perform, recieve (whatever word you want to use) the same action 2x in a game round. Why hasen't FFG come out yet with these rulings?

The rules are indeed quite clear: you cannot use the same action twice. The rules are also pretty clear on what an action is. Some things that are not actions: receiving tokens from other sources and using tokens.

I totally agree dbmeboy, but I have to say arguing when we know that we won't change their minds and they won't change ours is pointless. I'm resolved to wait for FFG's decision and then possibly gloat a little. LOL. Just kidding. But seriously, I'm done arguing this.

Roy

Posted at

I agree, arguing any more about this one doesn't make any sense. It is as clear to me and some others that he can give a focus token to someone who already has their own as it is clear to others that he can not. So, for the community as a whole there is no clear answer and we'll have to wait for the FAQ before we can get any sort of firm resolution for this one.

Posted at

chris cook said:

Gentelmen, it is clear that the game designers DO NOT want ships to be able to LOAD UP on actions during 1 game round. As new ships come out they may also give free actions to ships that DO NOT already have that token on the ships. Rules seem pretty clear-- you cant use , perform, recieve (whatever word you want to use) the same action 2x in a game round. Why hasen't FFG come out yet with these rulings?

chris cook said:

Rules seem pretty clear-- you cant use , perform, recieve (whatever word you want to use) the same action 2x in a game round. Why hasen't FFG come out yet with these rulings?

I completely disagree with the suggestion that receiving a token by any means is the same thing as performing that action. Consider the following:

Rookie Pilot equipped with R5-K6 completes it's maneuver and then, in the "Perform Action" step performs the "Acquire a Target Lock" action.

Then in the Combat Phase, the Rookie Pilot spends his Target Lock Token. R5-K6's ability then kicks in, and, having successfully rolled an evade icon, Rookie Pilot receives a second Target Lock Token in the same round .

If, as has been suggested a few times "Receiving a token" and "performing an action" are to be considered the same thing, then a pilot with R5-K6 would not be allowed to acquire a target lock the second time as he would have performed the same action twice.

Posted at

Why on earth most of you omit to call those tokens by their real name : "action tokens"?

Posted at

Xhyl said:

Why on earth most of you omit to call those tokens by their real name : "action tokens"?

WOW! I can't believe I missed that. They are called action tokens . That pretty much negates most of my argument. I would still like to see a ruling, but I have to admit that it is no longer as clear cut as I once believed it was.

Roy

Posted at

The name really doesn't change a thing. The tokens are normally gained using actions. There do exist other ways to gain them. Spending them is never an action. If spending tokens was an action, target lock tokens could not be spent on the same turn where you took another action.

Posted at

I still believe that it gaining the token during a combat phase is not an action. I'm just admitting that this is the first opposing view that I have seen on this thread that makes any sense to me.

Roy

Posted at

They are collectively called Action Tokens. Later, they are called Focus Tokens, Evade Tokens, and Target Lock Tokens. Not Focus Action token, etc.

I don't think the name is important. The token is merely to serve as a reminder that the pilot took that action. Just as the rules saying that a pilot gets to make one action during the Activation Phase doesn't mean that Actions can ONLY be made during the Activation Phase, calling them Action Tokens doesn't mean that the only way they are placed is through Actions.

Posted at

Torresse said:

Budgernaut said:

As for balance, to get a target lock from Dutch and a focus token from Garven onto a third pilot that took a Koiogran turn takes a lot of smart piloting. Also, if you want that pilot to use the target lock and focus in that same turn, he has to be skill 6 or lower.

swarm tactics

Fair enough. If Luke or Wedge has Swarm Tactics, they can get a target lock from Dutch, pull a Koiogran Turn, have Garven use his focus token (now bringing up the question of whether he can spend it without attacking, which I think he shouldn't be able to do), Garven gives the focus token to Luke/Wedge, and now Luke/Wedge attacks. I still think that's a pretty specific scenario and isn't really unbalanced. Is it a powerful play? Yes. But Imperials have good strategies as well. I still fail to see how this is unduly favoring the Rebels when it isn't a cakewalk to set up. Besides, if you're playing Imperials, just put something in front of a Rebel so he doesn't keep up and isn't in range to use his ability.

Posted at

Budgernaut said:

Torresse said:

Budgernaut said:

As for balance, to get a target lock from Dutch and a focus token from Garven onto a third pilot that took a Koiogran turn takes a lot of smart piloting. Also, if you want that pilot to use the target lock and focus in that same turn, he has to be skill 6 or lower.

swarm tactics

Fair enough. If Luke or Wedge has Swarm Tactics, they can get a target lock from Dutch, pull a Koiogran Turn, have Garven use his focus token (now bringing up the question of whether he can spend it without attacking, which I think he shouldn't be able to do), Garven gives the focus token to Luke/Wedge, and now Luke/Wedge attacks. I still think that's a pretty specific scenario and isn't really unbalanced. Is it a powerful play? Yes. But Imperials have good strategies as well. I still fail to see how this is unduly favoring the Rebels when it isn't a cakewalk to set up. Besides, if you're playing Imperials, just put something in front of a Rebel so he doesn't keep up and isn't in range to use his ability.

It wouldn't work this way. The combat phase goes from highest ability to lowest. Therefore, Luke and Wedge would have attacked before Garvin. The only time that would benefit either is to gain a focus to use against any lower ability Imperial pilots. Garven's ability is granted during the combat phase. If it gets put on a pilot who doesn't use it, it disappears at the end phase of the turn.

Posted at

Kitran said:

Budgernaut said:

Torresse said:

Budgernaut said:

As for balance, to get a target lock from Dutch and a focus token from Garven onto a third pilot that took a Koiogran turn takes a lot of smart piloting. Also, if you want that pilot to use the target lock and focus in that same turn, he has to be skill 6 or lower.

swarm tactics

Fair enough. If Luke or Wedge has Swarm Tactics, they can get a target lock from Dutch, pull a Koiogran Turn, have Garven use his focus token (now bringing up the question of whether he can spend it without attacking, which I think he shouldn't be able to do), Garven gives the focus token to Luke/Wedge, and now Luke/Wedge attacks. I still think that's a pretty specific scenario and isn't really unbalanced. Is it a powerful play? Yes. But Imperials have good strategies as well. I still fail to see how this is unduly favoring the Rebels when it isn't a cakewalk to set up. Besides, if you're playing Imperials, just put something in front of a Rebel so he doesn't keep up and isn't in range to use his ability.

It wouldn't work this way. The combat phase goes from highest ability to lowest. Therefore, Luke and Wedge would have attacked before Garvin. The only time that would benefit either is to gain a focus to use against any lower ability Imperial pilots. Garven's ability is granted during the combat phase. If it gets put on a pilot who doesn't use it, it disappears at the end phase of the turn.

He was referring to Swarm Tactics. Using ST a friendly pilot withing range 1 will be the same pilot skill. If Wedge is using ST on Garven then Garven would be a Pilot Skill 9 and can act before Wedge.

Roy

Posted at

drkjedi35 said:

Kitran said:

Budgernaut said:

Torresse said:

Budgernaut said:

As for balance, to get a target lock from Dutch and a focus token from Garven onto a third pilot that took a Koiogran turn takes a lot of smart piloting. Also, if you want that pilot to use the target lock and focus in that same turn, he has to be skill 6 or lower.

swarm tactics

Fair enough. If Luke or Wedge has Swarm Tactics, they can get a target lock from Dutch, pull a Koiogran Turn, have Garven use his focus token (now bringing up the question of whether he can spend it without attacking, which I think he shouldn't be able to do), Garven gives the focus token to Luke/Wedge, and now Luke/Wedge attacks. I still think that's a pretty specific scenario and isn't really unbalanced. Is it a powerful play? Yes. But Imperials have good strategies as well. I still fail to see how this is unduly favoring the Rebels when it isn't a cakewalk to set up. Besides, if you're playing Imperials, just put something in front of a Rebel so he doesn't keep up and isn't in range to use his ability.

It wouldn't work this way. The combat phase goes from highest ability to lowest. Therefore, Luke and Wedge would have attacked before Garvin. The only time that would benefit either is to gain a focus to use against any lower ability Imperial pilots. Garven's ability is granted during the combat phase. If it gets put on a pilot who doesn't use it, it disappears at the end phase of the turn.

He was referring to Swarm Tactics. Using ST a friendly pilot withing range 1 will be the same pilot skill. If Wedge is using ST on Garven then Garven would be a Pilot Skill 9 and can act before Wedge.

Roy

Hah! I got too excited to reply and misread it. :P Sorry!

Posted at

RoboChap said:

chris cook said:

Gentelmen, it is clear that the game designers DO NOT want ships to be able to LOAD UP on actions during 1 game round. As new ships come out they may also give free actions to ships that DO NOT already have that token on the ships. Rules seem pretty clear-- you cant use , perform, recieve (whatever word you want to use) the same action 2x in a game round. Why hasen't FFG come out yet with these rulings?

chris cook said:

Rules seem pretty clear-- you cant use , perform, recieve (whatever word you want to use) the same action 2x in a game round. Why hasen't FFG come out yet with these rulings?

I completely disagree with the suggestion that receiving a token by any means is the same thing as performing that action. Consider the following:

Rookie Pilot equipped with R5-K6 completes it's maneuver and then, in the "Perform Action" step performs the "Acquire a Target Lock" action.

Then in the Combat Phase, the Rookie Pilot spends his Target Lock Token. R5-K6's ability then kicks in, and, having successfully rolled an evade icon, Rookie Pilot receives a second Target Lock Token in the same round .

If, as has been suggested a few times "Receiving a token" and "performing an action" are to be considered the same thing, then a pilot with R5-K6 would not be allowed to acquire a target lock the second time as he would have performed the same action twice.

Exactly. It's not an action so it does not count as a ship's action since the card ability does not have an "Action: " header.

Posted at

I agree, gaining a free action token is definitively not an action and Garven can give this token to who he thinks is best for the job … but for the pilot receiver to do two focus in a round is another story; And you know where I stand on this one ; )

“Hey pilot what are you doing??? … oh don’t worry I’m just spending my second focus action token, a gift that give me the ability to focus for free, … I’m not focusing, no, no, I’m just spending it” - LoL

Posted at

Xhyl said:

I agree, gaining a free action token is definitively not an action and Garven can give this token to who he thinks is best for the job … but for the pilot receiver to do two focus in a round is another story; And you know where I stand on this one ; )

“Hey pilot what are you doing??? … oh don’t worry I’m just spending my second focus action token, a gift that give me the ability to focus for free, … I’m not focusing, no, no, I’m just spending it” - LoL

Spending a token isn't an action either.

Roy

Posted at

Xhyl said:

but for the pilot receiver to do two focus in a round is another story; And you know where I stand on this one ; )

Of course the pilot cannot take two focus actions. Keep in mind though, the only result of taking a focus action is gaining a focus token. Spending focus tokens, on the other hand, has no such restriction.

Posted at

From the games I've played recently, I like Garven's ability. I think it's worked well. I just make sure that I only use one token per combat phase and I think that stays within the spirit of the game/rules. I don't use him much though, since when I play, I play Imperial. :D

Posted at

Having a stress token does not prevent you from spending a focus token, does it? This could prove that spending tokens is not equivalent to performing actions.