Here is the scenario:

I attack intrigue with 1 character who has deadly. He blocks with a character with lesser strength with no deadly keyword.

Ok, now we are in the framework action where keywords go off. He chooses his character to die for deadly, then does a save reponse with maester of the sun.

Then he stands maester of the sun for vengeful.

I thought this was incorrect because the game checks for all the keywords (except renown) at the same time. So the game was checking for deadly, vengeful, stalwart, etc. But I deferred to him who said the game checks the keywords in the framework action when the keywords are available to 'go off'.

So does maester of the sun get to stand for vengeful?

As you said, passives (except renown) triggered by any challenge framework event trigger in the same step of the game - that includes both "Deadly" and "Vengeful" (as well as Vigilant, etc).

However, that doesn't mean they happen at the same time - if two (or more) passive effects happen in the same "step", the first player gets to decide what order they are resolved in. If you're the first player, you would choose Vengeful then Deadly, so his Maester of the Sun stays knelt. If he is, he would obviously choose the opposite.

This is the same scenario that happens much more often in the plot phase; "When Revealed" plots happen during the same step of the framework window and are passives, so the first player gets to pick what order they resolve in. If I reveal At the Gates and he reveals at Valar, I'll resolve HIS plot first, then mine (so Valar doesn't kill the Maester).

I was the first player in that case, so I should have said I will resolve vengeful first, then deadly.

thanks.

-Istaril said:

questions:

-- is "vengeful" executed/resolved for each character individually, or for all characters with vengeful at once? (fairly certain the latter is the case)

-- if the latter is the case, and if there are defending characters on the table with "vengeful," but no such character is standing, are we certain that the first player can choose to execute/resolve vengeful? what's the rules logic (references would be helpful if relevant)?

this is rather different from the execution/resolution of plot-phase passives

The text for vengeful is "After you lose a challenge as the defender, you may stand any number of cards with the “Vengeful” keyword that you control"

That means that as a passive, when it resolves the player has the option of standing any number of cards with "Vengeful". That number can be 0. All those cards stand at once - it's all one trigger, and the effect isn't to stand "that" character, but any number of characters.

The number of standing or kneeling cards with vengeful is irrelevant, since they can stand any number of them. What's important here is that vengeful is triggered (whether you like it or not) every single time you lose a challenge as the defender. Since it is a passive, whether its triggered before or after deadly is up to the first player, but it will *always* trigger, even if it only serves to stand 0 characters.

Since you can attempt to stand a standing character, you can't really say "I lost a challenge as the defender, but since none of my Vengeful characters are kneeling, there is no opportunity to initiate the keyword." The fact that an effect cannot resolve successfully does not prevent it from initiating.

ktom said:

Is that also true if there are no characters with the Vengeful keyword?

In other words, do you always resolve Vigilant and Vengeful regardless of the existence of characters having those keywords?

Pretending a character had the text: "While this character is kneeling, they gain the Vengeful keyword." could be a reason that would matter. Yes, it's completely made up but would like to know for my own enlightenment.

The vengeful keyword grants the ability to trigger and stand characters.

Without any vengeful characters, there's no "initiation" of vengeful, and so you cannot stand "any number of characters with vengeful you control". If there is a character with vengeful at step 4 (trigger passives), then vengeful has to happen (although you can choose to stand 0 characters). If there isn't, then it isn't even initiatiated.

Specifically, something cannot initiate if it isn't in play.

So, when you look at "which passive effects are conflicting?" if there is no Vengeful in play, it is not in conflict.

Now, if there are no characters with Vengeful in play, and the one enters play during the resolution of passives, you would have to initiate it before moving on to Responses.

Thank you for your responses. I just wanted to be clear on that and that it was not simply some cog in the game that is always turned.