Hi everyone,

I enjoy WHI and I was playing it all last season in Poland. I like that Bloodquest Cycle brings power to High Elves, amny combo cards and extended use of quest cards… but many rules are unclear and discutable. To enjoy the game, especially competitive like Invasion, there cannot be place for many interpretations hos some things work or not. I will give some problematic samples and… FFG please - give us new FAQ and fix that issues.

A) Arcane Power - that spell was "limited" during our Nationals becouse even after last errata that card combine with 2 Gathering the Winds, Star Crown Fragments + Burying the Grudge/Innovation or Order in Chaos is just too powerful. examples with Legend or hero + artifact from Heroic Task:

2x Gathering the Winds, some expendable spell with cost 0 or 1 like Scroll of Asur and Arcane Power. We play AP first than expendable spell in response. Scroll or other spell is resolved, Gathering is discarded, than we resolve the Arcane Power, draw a card and return Gathering. During that operation we get 2 tokens on second Gathering and can repeat that proces to draw all deck, seal it with Convocations of Eagles, produce unlimited resorces, drop 3rd gathering and have any number of tokens, play Eltharion, Loreseeker + Seam Master, ensure the win with White Tower Aspirant or kill opponent some other way. That can happen quite easy during second turn.

Another combo works with Burying the Grudge or Innovation for 5 resources, Arcane Power and Star Crown Fragments, that gives us unlimited card draw, tokens on Loreseeker and Ancient Depts Repaid or just Dwarf Ranger endless damage from for example Veteran Slayer sacrificed and returned to hand as many times we want. Thanks to ADR, Burying the Grudge, Innovation and Stand Your Ground, dwarves can also start the combo on turn 2.

As I wrote before, only solution for Arcane Power second turn unlimited combos are limitation to 1 Arcane Power per turn.

B) Gathering the Winds - playing many spells from 1 GtW is really strong option, but playing attachment-spells like Judgement of Loec during opponent's turn on action without chance to response is just sick overpower, that controls quest, most valuable units or any attack… and with Arcane Power can be easy repeated. FFG PLEASE !!! attachment-spells should be playable from Gathering only during controlling player's turn not anytime…

C) Mage of Loec - canceling any "action" also tactics is really powerful, but probably not overpowered… but why ruling of that card allows to cancel all actions in one chain/stack? Please limit that ability somehow to one action in chain/stack.

D) Reckless Engineer - we have X developments and X supports card with any cost on top of our deck. We sacrifice X developments in response one to other, we resolve the ability and… first support is put into play, kill the engineer… and what with 3 next supports? we also put that cards into play or not? In my opinion, if damage equal to support cost cannot be dealt to engineer, revealed cards even supports should be discarded.

E) end turn fase - is end of combat fase also the "end of fase"? for example - Did Master Rune of Valaya protect the player from damage from Snotling Invasions? that could be nice, but maybe also should be calrified in FAQ.

NEW -> F) What about unending horde : If I play unending horde's action for zero and Troll Vomit in response. Are the units destroyed by vomit able to go to the battlefield when I resolve unending horde's action?

Until that problems are solved I am not playing WHI… The new preatty well looking Cycle is coming, so that is good time to fix problems with cards from Bloodquest Cycle, right?

supported.

it seems that designers forget that actions can be responded to themselves in this game :

If High Elf and Dwarf combos have the capability to be so powerful, Why weren't either of them represented in the top 5 at the Polish tourney? You said that even house ruling it the way you guys did still allowed them to be very strong…yet they didn't show up? What gives?

Doc9 said:

…ohhhhhhh…..ok. So it hasn't been proven that it is too powerful. Because of the house ruling they were not able to show exactly what all the complaining is about. OK…got it.

It has been extensively tested on our local leagues and tournaments.
Doc9 I really hope you're going to the Worlds Invasion tournament

A) Arcane Power : In fact, Darker decided that Arcane Power could be played without limitation during the new season of tournaments in Poland to prove that FFG was wrong but nobody in Poland won with this kind of deck. So…

B) Gathering the Wind : I definitely disagree with you, it is not over powerfull. I remind you of the necessity to have judgement of loec in your discard pile to play it during the opponent's turn.

C) Mage of Loec : I agree there is a bug with mage of Loec because two mages could infinitely cancel there actions each other

D) Reckless Engineer : Agree

E) Agree

F) What about unending horde : If I play unending horde's action for zero and Troll Vomit in response. Are the units destroyed by vomit able to go to the battlefield when I resolve unending horde's action?

Djibi said:

Yeah I forget that issue - of course Horde with Vomit glitch is also a problem to solve

Teokrata said:

Hi,

I ran into that combo on the weekend and can confirm that it is not a lot of fun to play (=lose) against. I do not quite understand, however, why the first Gathering can be retrieved from the discard by the Arcane Power that it played. Given FAQ 1.8, "Gathering the Winds does not leave play until after a Spell it plays it resolved". So it should not be in the discard when Arcane Power resolves.

If this were the case, infite card draw and resources won't work without three Gatherings, and infinite number of tokens will never happen. Can somebody try to explain to me where I'm misunderstanding things?

Thanks,

Maik

Maik said:

That is possible becouse You play more than 1 spell from Gathering the Winds and Arcane Power is resolved as last and support is sacrificed after the first one so, when AP is resolved the Gathering is in discard pile. Look into FAQ:

"You can, however, play multiple Spells with Gathering the Winds, provided you have the tokens to do so, as Gathering the Winds does not leave play until after a Spell it plays is resolved. All Spells will be played in reverse order when the chain resolves (even after Gathering the Winds leaves play, as effects exist independently of their source)."

Teokrata said:

Interpreting the sentence from the FAQ above to mean that Gathering the Winds leaves play after the first Spell resolves is, to me, a misinterpretation. The sentence is not aimed at introducing new rules, but just at explaining why Gathering allows the play of several spells from the discard at once. Bending this sentence to justify a play of the card that a) goes against all internal logic of the action chain and b) is, as you've noted, obscenely powerful makes me regret that I did not question the combo on the weekend.

I'm not sure this needs to be further clarified, because it is very clear to me that this is illegal.

Ok, I was a bit hasty here - sorry for that. While I still don't see the sentence in the FAQ as relevant to this question, the text on Gathering the Wind itself indicates that it can be played in the way you describe. So I concur: this needs to be clarified.

Sorry for being a bit slow on the uptake,

Maik

Maik said:

Maik said:

No problem ;-) To be clear - I never used such rules advantage on any tournament, I just want to highline that issues

Unfortunately AP would be limited if combo deck won tournament. How many combo deck won a tournament in poland this season?

Djibi said:

are You sure about that? just for an example…

http://warhammer-inwazja.pl/index.php?p=5&t=862

[Warszawa] 2012-09-22 "Gambit Cogito":

1. Cogito HE Eltharion combo
2. Wosho HE kontrkontrola
3. Krzysiek Malek DWA kontrolny wcisk
4. Seth DE przewijarka
5. Ostry CHA kontrola
6. Dex CHA kontrola ze spaczaniem
7. Dykta CHA chyba kontrola
8. Carnage ORC + CHA kontrola
9. Awojdi IMP chyba kontrola (drop)
10. Mutineer ORC kontrolny wcisk
11. Selverin DWA kontrola

http://www.whinvasion.pl/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2305&start=10

also please remember that some players (like me) just don't want to play such OP and IMBA deck in tournaments, becouse of "fair play and fun" reasons…

Teokrata said:

Ok! one victory for HE combo deck in Poland, I was not sure cogito played a combo deck, and one victory in France too. How many tournaments have been played since september 1rst? Maybe 20? More? Do you really think that two victories are enough to decide to limit a card? I don't think so. I don't know if you are right but if you don't want to play this kind of deck please wait to see if this deck is really is IMBA.

Teokrata said:

I take issue with you claiming that these are all "unclear" rules or "open to interpretation" You just don't like how the rulings turned out. I'm not going to tell you that you are wrong, because you may very well be correct that the cards are imbalanced, but you are mostly requesting card errata for power/balance reasons, not because the text is ambiguous.

A&B have been talked about plenty.

C. Mage of Loec is about the only one of these that is truly a broken mechanic, since 2 players can just trigger them back and forth forever.

D. This card is pretty clear, you just disagree with how it works. I suspect that your version is how they originally intended it to work, but its pretty clear how it actually works.

E. End of Turn Phase is spelled out in the FAQ (Condensed Turn Sequence) as the end of the combat phase. I suspect that it will become its own Phase again when the Eternal War cycle is released, due to cards that manipulate the Battlefield phase, but for now Valaya will protect against Snotling Invasions.

F. Again, this has been answered. TV resolves, the units go under Unending Horde, then it resolves and they come into play.

Entropy42 said:

So to be clear - every card works as I specify in points from A to F and that rules interpretations are legal?

Yes, You are right. I know how all these cards works, but in my opinion that how they works disrupts game balance.

Two Gathering the Winds and one Arcane Power allowing to draw all deck and win the game is purly overpowered.

Gahtering The Winds returning to hand every turn turn with AP setting lockdown prison thx to Cleansing/Loec/Disdain is IMBA.

Reckless Engineer sacrificing developed for example 2 Runes of Dismay dropping these supports into play with order in chaos is broken.

Troll Vomit destroying all enemy units before all orcs from kingdom and quest moves into battlefield and attack is broken.

Becouse of how powerful are these options, many players have doubts about how all these cards should work.

FFG, devs, Caleb… please… tell Us how We should play…

Teokrata said:

Its quite possible these cards will become errata'ed to work differently, but for now they all work as you fear they do (to be honest I didn't read A&B carefully, but I assume they are right). FFG doesn't read these forums as far as I can tell, and they definitely don't reply to them, but I'm sure Caleb is aware of the crazy things you can do with all of these cards.

Anyway, you already know how you should play, since you've said you know how they all work. If these become overwhelmingly dominant strategies, I'm sure they will issue errata/ban/restrictions to deal with it, like they have in the past.

Entropy42 said:

Thanks for Your reply, it is important to Us.

In my opinion HE are little to strong with Gathering the Winds + Arcane Power options, even without combo, they are really tough to deal with now. Dwarves was imba before, and they don't need much to be overpowered again. Fix the Enginner and they should be OK. Also orcs are very strong now and Vomit+Horde glitch can breal the balance in greenskin favour. DE lives in the shadow of their blondie kins… Chaos could do everything, but can be also stopped, maybe UTS should be adressed in FAQ to explain when exacly player declar X and sacrifce developments and so on… Empire looks little too weak now, maybe Wilhelm [EMP] and Soul Stealer [DE] should leave restriction list now, they are not as powerful as before…

Concerning GtW and MoL there is a wrong use of "Then". Rewording the "Then" clause as a cost should have solved the problem.

By example : Gathering's action could have read : "Sacrifice this card AND remove resource tokens…" Mage of Loec's action could have read : "this unit becomes a facedown development unless you discard a quest from your hand AND cancel an Action just triggered."

I will find more if U wish… for example one from the last

[Kraków] 3..10.2012, V Liga Krakowska

1. Boreas 4:0:0 (2:2:0) 20 HE combo

2. Repek 2:1:1 (4:0:0) 19 CHA kontrola
3. Valathorn 1:0:3 (4:0:0) 15 DE mill
4. Drumdaar 2:0:2 (1:1:2) 10 CHA kontrola
5-6. Stach 1:1:2 (1:2:1) 9 DE kontrola
5-6. Thanatos 1:2:1 (1:1:2) 9 CHA kairos
7-8. Dashi 0:2:2 (2:0:2) 8 CHA kontrola
7-8. Marcin 2:0:2 (0:2:2) 8 ORC squigi
9-10. Malkav3 2:1:1 (0:0:4) 7 DWA nie wiem jakie
9-10. Raskoks 1:1:2 (1:0:3) 7 DE nie wiem jakie

I just don't understand how and why could I respond to my own actions. For me, respond to an action is an option only for the other player. And then you can respond to the response of other player and the action chain lasts when no player respond to the other. So when I play an action and other player do not respond, I resolve my action and go to the next action.

Please FFG , change the rules for responses and action chain ! We will no longer see anormal combo and no longer need errata on simple cards.

Teokrata said:

unfortunately I perfectly know the deck of Boreas, I play with him almost every day on OCTGN and he doesn't play arcane power

Djibi said:

current discussion is about balance and how some cards and their rulings leads to OP or IMBA. so… probably the problem is not Arcane Power, but just Gathering the Winds, Mage Of Loec and Convocation of Eagles, which give HE extreme power even without any combo…

maybe Gathering the Winds should be sacrificed after last spell is resolved? or as cost of action? open issue…