Ok, but while the solution of "GM has to approve" is indeed one way of handling this, that's true for every aspect of the game. Objective here is to create rules which support the intent of the game. The current rules do not.

And we agree… there's no way to notice most use of the Force, so no way to really use punishment for usage of the Force as a tool.

Gryphynx said:

Says you. Quite a few folks feel that Force powers, as presented so far in this game, support both the intent and the general feel of the default era of play quite well. The Force can be a powerful thing, but it's also incredibly rare and difficult to master. Even during the Old Republic's heyday, it wasn't common for your average galactic citizen to encounter a Jedi. To put in real world terms, how many people in this current millenium have encountered a World War I veteran? That's about how rare Force-users are.

FFG's approach to this rarity is both "get your GM's permission" and "pay a significant entry fee" in the form of purchasing a non-Career specialiation on top of the individual powers, and you need that specialization first because each of the powers requires Force Rating 1, and Force-Sensitive Exile is the only way to satisfy that requirement. Difficulty to "master" comes in the XP costs, both to purchase the various upgrades to expand what ther power can do as well as increase one's Force Rating via the talent of the same name.

As for "unable to be noticed," you're forgetting that while most people may not have actually seen a Jedi in person, they've heard plenty. And the Empire has had over a decade to build up the paranoia about odd things happening around certain types of people, and Palpatine's instilled enough anti-Jedi paranoia in the Imperial military that actual proof of someone being a Force-user isn't needed. The Empire is a police state, and anyone suspected of sedition, much less of being a Force-user, can be rounded up and left to rot in a cell without as much as a "by your leave." All it would take is one "good citizen" to contact the local Imperial authorities (remember, there are quite a few folks that don't have a problem with the Empire, much as there are people who aren't troubled by any sort of oppressive regime) that they witnessed said persion (PC Force-user) doing "spooky stuff" such as making things fly about or bewitching people with a few funny hand gestures. Remember that Watto remarked "what, you think you some kind of Jedi?" in response to Qui-Gon waving his hand and saying "credits will do fine" after Watto made it pretty clear that they wouldn't. And should your Force-user PC openly use a lightsaber? Be ready for ten metric tons of trouble, as said PC just became Imperial Enemy Number One in that region; even Obi-Wan didn't get away with his lightsaber usage in Chalmun's Cantina, as stormtroopers showed up (probably tipped off by one or more patrons) and the bartender wasted little time in pointing in the direction he'd seen Obi-Wan and Luke walk towards for their meeting with Han.

GM Chris said this quite a bit about Saga Edition in regards to how "broken" Force-users were in that version. Quite simply, a good chunk of the balance was in the fluff, particularly in regards to awarding Dark Side Points, but also in terms of mindset and attitude. In the case of EotE, it's the fairly extensive anti-Jedi paranoia, and the fact that the Empire doesn't need something as trivial as proof, that will help keep Force-users from being too cavalier with the more noticeable effects of their powers.

And for things like Move and Influence, there are noticeable effects, and unless said Force-user is really good (namely, having bought at least two Range Upgrades, if not more), they're going to be fairly close to their target, and it won't take a whole lot for most people to figure out that the guy making the funny hand gestures is largely responsible for things flying about of their own volition.

I should point out that, while it's true that a GM has final say over everything in the game, the chapter on the Force specifically calls this out in a way that sets it apart from the rest of the game's rules. This should be fairly obvious. Like every edition since WEG, playing a Force-user carries with it some very restrictive roleplaying limitations. To ignore these limitations and then complain about game balance is like ignoring doctor's advice on diet, rest, and excercise; and then complaining that he's not doing anything to fix your congestive heart disorder. Well…I suppose it's slightly less grave a matter, but you understand what I'm getting at yes?

Some will compare the issue of Force use to the "Linear Fighter, Quadratic Wizard" problem. But just like there is an RP answer to that, there is an RP answer to this "problem" as well, which Dono has elloquently put.

Personally, I would not enjoy playing a Star Wars game where the Force users didn't have an edge over non-Force users. That's simply the way it is and the way it should be. To make it not so is to make it not Star Wars . Take Episode V for example: look at Han vs. Vader, and then look at Luke vs. Vader. Han didn't have a chance on Mustafar. Luke was beat up pretty bad too, but he held his own up until he got his hand cut off. Force leaping, lightsaber dueling. Heck, he even got a blow in past Vader's defenses. That was more than Han could hope for.

The Force gives you an edge. To deny it in favor of "game balance" is to defeat the purpose of Star Wars roleplaying games, IMHO.

My apologies, I don't mean to offend, but none of this is addressing the issue. I've not suggested that there should be fewer Force Users, I'm ok with having ALL my players being Force Users, made obvious in that 4 of the 6 players I have are Force Sensitive. The topic is how easy it is to be completely Force Powered (all 3 Power groups).

If a player has thematic reason to be Force Sensitive, I'm ok with that. But once he is, the point I've been reiterating is that it's too cost effective to branch out into all aspects of the Force once you are Force Sensitive. Like I have said, the TK player I have chose to be Influence and Sense powered rather than finish his core Talent Tree or Specialize elsewhere. Same for the Scout/Sense character, the Politico/Influence character, and even the Martial Artist Assassin who only became Exile for the Talent Tree (Though admittedly, all 3 of those did climb heavily up their Core Specialization).

-All- 4 players admitted that they branched out simply because it was too easy to do so and thematically supported (in that it's assumed in the Star Wars universe that anyone who is Force Sensitive can and will use all 3 power groups). None of them had interest in being more than one aspect, but all 4 spread out. I posted because I saw from experience that it IS a problem.

I adjusted the rules to 25/50/100, instead of 10/10/10 and the next incarnation of the characters didn't spread out their talent trees.

Again, we're not talking about how easy it is to be a Force Sensitive user. I'm 100% ok with that cost. It's about discouraging full Force Users, or… "Jedi" types, in the setting. It's about game mechanics that will either discourage, or stay neutral, over the choice of picking mundane Talent Trees in lleu of further Force Talent Trees -after- someone is already Force Sensitive. So that when they're TK Monsters, the choice to be a Mechanic is -as- (or more) attractive as the choice to be an Influencer.

25 as base instead of 10, was -just- enough so that the Martial Artist went back to finishing his tree and specializing in another combat specialization rather than pick up his first Force Power. 50 was similiarly -just- enough that the only person who really considered (and opted against finally) to spread into a 2nd Force Power was the TK character (and the only reason he didn't, in addition to the cost which he found acceptable, was because there was already characters who had the other 2 trees, without those characters being in the game, he'd have spread out). 100 is just a natural progression of the 25/50, though I think 50, 75, or 100 would all be acceptable for the 3rd Tree.

Gryphynx said:

Then I'd say you've got a pack of power-gamers that care less about what makes sense for their character concept and simply what provides the most bonuses with a paper-thin justification. So it's less a problem with the ruleset, and more a problem with your play group.

There is one other element, a role-play based one that you may want to keep in mind…

Who did these guys learn the powers from?

Luke pretty much developed the basics of his abilities in a vacuum, but he's also Luke Skywalker, son of Chosen One Anakin Skywalker, and even then he didn't progress in large degrees until he went pay Yoda a visit.

The PCs generally won't advance anywhere near as fast, even with tutelage, and probably won't advance much at all without the guidance of an experienced Force-user.

If none of the PCs started out as Force-Sensitive Exiles with all three Force Powers at character creation, then they'd need to find someone to help them learn those powers. It's not something explicitly stated in the rules, but it's one of the fluff-balance elements, something that probably wasn't touched on in the Beta because said book was focused on the crunch aspects of the game.

A common house-rule for Saga Edition was that without a teacher, a Force-user that hadn't progressed enough to take levels in a Force-using Prestige Class was limited to the Force Powers in the core rulebook.

It'd probably do a lot for reigning in power-gamers like yours if a similar rule was adopted at your table, namely that unless you bought said Force Power at character creation, you need to find an instructor to teach you at least the basics of that power, be it an older Jedi/Force-user or an ancient holocron, or even some basic 'how-to" instructional data-logs (like the ones that Luke found within the wreck of that Jedi training carrier ship on Dathomir). No instructor, then you can't learn the power, simple as that.

Donovan Morningfire said:

I tend to agree about the powergamer issue. It is, however, a fairly common issue to have.

As for that house rule… given the context of SWSE being d20 mechanics, sensible.

In WEG, progress without a teacher was increased time requirements, and the initial die absolutely required a teacher with at least 3d in that force skill. (Powers were free but selected by the teacher.) Reducing the time took extra character points. Many GM's also doubled again the CP requirement without a teacher for the improvement. I know I did.

Donovan Morningfire said:

As stated before, irrelevant. This isn't about how specific groups roleplay, I'm fully aware that my group enjoys character optimization, and I even encourage it because I find that people who are more invested into their characters, tend to do fewer foolish things. Being a "power gamer", doesn't mean you're less of a "role player", the 2 are completely compatable.

That being said, it's irrelevant because this is a beta game, and the objective of posting here is to show where rules could be similarly optimized to endure the problems that ALL sorts of players and groups might encounter. This is about rules, not how to roleplay. Considering that most roleplaying games are more combat-game, you can be assured that many of the players for any RPG will be optimization oriented.

As stated, there's a problem. Maybe it's a problem that will only ever come about in my group, but that's unlikely. If the rules don't match the theme, and the theme becomes dependent on the GM, in regards to character creation/advancement, then there needs to be a change in the rules.

The real question is becoming… why the objection to 25 base cost for first Force Power from people who seemingly haven't had Force Sensitive players even in their games? If your group isn't abusing the rule (and by abuse, I mean as described in my last post in that it's simply too cost effective to not max your Force in all aspects), why are you opposing the suggested rule? As a good GM, at least I think I am, I don't want to have to impose limitation on characters… characters are -their- part of the story, my part is the rest. The canonical rules should be enough of a limitation, especially thematically.

Gryphynx said:

Actually, it's very relevant to the discussion at hand, especially with your admitting that you encourage your players to "game the system" and simply exploit the rules for the biggest benefit.

From where I sit, the simple fact that you're letting your players go hog-wild and not even try to reign them in, even a little, undercuts your justification for increasing the XP costs of buying the basic Force Powers as a "balance measure." As both Awayputyrweapon and Aramis have remarked, a significant portion of "game balance" comes from the GM be willing to step up and enforce that balance, even if it means occasionally telling your players "No, you can't do that in my game." That's one of the main reasons there's a flesh-and-blood person running these games instead of them just being a computer game.

And for the record, I've had and played Force-Sensitive PCs in the games I've been in to date. And there's been no issue with the costs of the basic Force Powers due in no small part to not having players try to twist the rules into whatever provides them the most benefit, but also the tacit understanding and agreement between players and GM that Force-users aren't going to be the uber-capable individuals they were in the various versions of SWd20 , and that they are rare and uncommon.

So if you want to house-rule that Force Power costs are increased because you can't, won't, or don't want to restrain your players from power-gaming simply for the reason of making their characters "more powerful" instead of advancing along the notions of a character concept, then go ahead and make that a house-rule for your games. But at the same time, respect the fact that the rest of us haven't had that kind of issue, either due to a better class of player or a GM that's willing to take a more active hand in keeping their players from gaming the system, and are quite content with the entry costs of Force Powers as written.

Dude, you don't know me at all. There's a huge difference between letting players play characters as per the book, and letting them go hog wild. That and… this IS a -BETA- test/game. It's kinda our job, if we're posting on these particular forums, to weigh in on issues BY taking the system to the max. It's not exploiting the rules, it's using the rules. Just like buying a Blaster with your starting credits isn't "exploiting" the rules. It's just rules. If there's a problem, and this being a BETA game, then we post the problem for fixing.

It's great that your players don't want to push boundaries any for the purpose of BETA testing it, but that's not really the point. And again, you post irrelevant things without ever addressing the issue.

It's about game mechanics that will either discourage, or stay neutral, over the choice of picking mundane Talent Trees in lleu of further Force Talent Trees -after- someone is already Force Sensitive.

The fact that your game hasn't had problems with it, doesn't make it a non-problem. My game hasn't had any problems with ship combat, that doesn't mean it didn't need fixing, it's just not a focus in our games. Despite my group not having such problems, i'm not over on the ships thread trying to rip apart suggestions that are possibly valid.

I had a nice, long, thought-out and detailed response, but the forum server hiccuped and that post is lost and honestly I've wasted enough time on this pointless discussion.

You're not going to budge or listen to what anyone else has to say, even though the Beta period has been done since December 1st and you're the only one to have this so-called "issue."

So, do what you will, as it's obvious you're not really all that interested in contrasting opinions, either mine or those that others have given.

I would love a contrasting opinion, but nobody is talking about the issue other than to say they don't have the issue, most having stated that they only have 1 Force User who has no desire to test the system. Everything else is people stating that I need to House Rule (which I'd already done, I only posted here to let people know what House Rule worked for me) or change how my players play (which is an entirely wrong way to handle an RPG).