Thebearisdriving said:

Exactly what evidence are you basing this on? "With no risk of failure"? wtf?

Seriously, do you have any idea what the probability is of getting 3 lightside pips (1 each for activation, size, and range) on 2 force dice without generating darkside points?

Here's a hint: It ain't very f***ing likely!

And if the GM isn't punishing force users for generating dark side points, then he simply isn't doing his job. Also, you have to remember that the force user can miss on a discipline check. Both checks have to succeed on the same roll, which drops success down even lower.

I can produce the math that backs up every statement I just made, if you want. Just give me the values (object size, player skill, range) and I'll give you the result probabilities.

-WJL

LethalDose said:

Dude. There's a nice way to say these things. w/o the veiled swearing and the condecension. "Seriously, do you have any idea what" tact and manners are?

1. Why should a GM "punish" a player for using the darkside? That seems very antaginistic and arbitrary. There should be a consequence sure, but punish…

2. to get two pips of any color on 2 force dice? 100%. To get 2 lightside pips on two force dice: approximately 55% (3/12 chance for 2 lightside pips on each die, plus a 2/9 chance of getting one lightside pip times a 2/9 chance of getting 1 light side pip). those are good odds, especially if a pc is willing to accept the strain for using a darkside point.

Nothing i've said is outside the rules, and for a decent chance to deal 30 damage to a target for only 3 difficulty, I'd play those odds.and a game mechanic shouldnt exist just to make the GM punish players. That's the hall mark of some me vs. them 1e D&D.

Again, I'm saying that for the scope of the rules, going forward from the initial product, move is far too force point efficient. with three force dice your chance of getting 2 lightside pips is almost 85%, and that's for a character with a force rating described as "a young jedi knight." In the fiction and the universe of Star Wars very few young jedi knights can muster the reliable strength in the force to move a "rancor, Krayt Dragon, or other large creature."

I see that others disagree with me. thats cool. I'm not trying to say the game is "wrong", but looking at this from a design standpoint I see a rather large continuity error between design, intent, and the setting at large, and I'd rather see it addressed now rather than 2 years down the road. less we get the wailing and gnashing of teeth on the internet over how OP move object is, again, for the …4th system in a row? (3 d20 versions, and then FFG… yeah, that would be 4).

and Lethal Dose that would be a 2 willpower 4 disciplne character with intense focus one rank and force rating 2 on a silhuette 3 object.

by my calculation, 55% chance to get two force points, much higher (75-90%) if the PC can accept 1 strain for a darkside point. and 3 prof dice and one ablity die vs 3 difficulty dice => 1.5 avg failures cancelling 3.125 avg success (.625+3*.833333333) is avg roll of 1.625 success. Those are good odds to me.

Addendum:

Even adding adversary three to the target which adds 3*.25 evtra avg failure only bumps the avg success per roll down to .875, which is essentially 87.5%. Still really good odds to cream somehting with 30 damage.

[ADMIN: Edited for content. Refrain from personal attacks or personal criticism. Focus on the game and the point of discussion at hand.]

To start the rebuttal, lets make the following points:

#1 Trading in dark pips for light pips.

Thebearisdriving said:

Well, yes, he can, but exchanging dark pips for light pips not only costs one strain, but also costs one destiny point! . This is not a small cost, and destiny is a very finite resource. That may STILL be acceptable to the party, but you totally ignore that cost in your argument. Further, the GM could block you from using them by simply not activating the destiny points to revert them. As a GM, I think this is a reasonable response to a player who is being extremely abusive of the rules (a la going all Starkiller). You may disagree, fine, that's not the point. But PLEASE include all the costs involved in these example's you're posting. For no other reason than to show the people reading that that, yeah, you actually understand the rules.

This leads us to…

#2 Probability of successful activation

If you want to fling vehicles around, you are going to have to rely on at least two pips (three, if you're attacking beyond close range, following errata) on your force die results. Let's look at what YOU said:

Thebearisdriving said:

Thebearisdriving said:

Either you think "45% chance of failure" is the same as "No chance of failure", or the character is cranking though not only his strain, but the entire party's destiny pool as well, which isn't sustainable. Even if your estimate of 55% is right (it may not be) for 2 light side points, you need 3 for most attacks, which FURTHER drops the probability of success. An FR2 ISN'T going to be Starkiller.

#3 "Punishment" for using the Dark side.

You ask:

Thebearisdriving said:

Okay first, I never said "punish the player. I said punish the character (technically, I said "Force User" in my post. I thought it was clear that meant character, because I've never met a force using player). Consequences should be IN GAME. You can go and invoke "Oh, in the OLD days it was all about screwing over the players for the GM's amusement", but I've repeatedly stated on these forums I HATE that style of game play. It's not what RPGs should be about.

Second, maybe this is a semantics issue. I don't see any difference between the phrase "impose negative consequences upon" and the word "Punish". Maybe you do. But if you still have an issue with after clarification that they're synonymous to me, I have to refer to the rules. On page 178, 3rd paragraph under the section Activating Powers has the following to say about characters drawing on the dark side to activate powers:

"The consequences that come with this choice can be dire, and gravely affect the individual who gives into this temptation. Full-fledged Jedi and other powerful Force users suffer unique penalties for doing this that are note detailed here. However, nobody is immune from the consequences of choosing the quick and easy path."

Further in the next paragraph:

"The long-term consequences of constantly tapping into the dark side of the Force are left up to the roleplaying of the player and the GM."

Some things should be clear from these passages that:

• There are intended be negative consequences for drawing on the Dark side
• The consequence are supposed to be REALLY bad
• It is, at least in part, the responsibility of GM to impose these consequences (which I would call 'punishment')
• NO-ONE should get a pass on the consquences.
• It is the GM's job, at least in part, to "impose negative consequences upon" or "Punish" the character for using the dark side

And following up on that. This is STAR WARS. You want to invoke what's appropriate or cannon or consistent or whatever to point out the move power is out of place, but you don't seem to bat an eyelash at activating the dark side to crush targets with speeders. I would like to remind you of the following fact:

THE

DARK

SIDE

IS

BAD

There SHOULD be consequences for using it. This is one of the primary themes (If not the single integral theme) in all six movies. How can you complain that the move power is once again OP in a new edition, but then totally minimize a much larger thematic mechanic to provide any validity to your argument work! That's absurd! Also, if you've played all these editions of Star Wars RPGs, I would really hope you'd remember how severe dark side points were in the WEG systems. It was serious… doodie. Is that too much of a bad word?

Another point that is raised in the second sentence of the first cited paragraph indicates that there are force rules that are not yet published, which segues nicely into…

#4 Scaling the system forward doesn't work

There is going be a product in the future in which it is a pretty sure thing that this entire system will be overhauled. EotE is not intended to represent PCs beyond FR 2. Age of Rebellion probably won't be either. We won't be using these rules for more power Force users. End of story.

#5 Point of reference for discussion

You started out referring to a character built on 170 points, but are now adding in "Intense focus" to your proposed example. That adds at least 45 points to the build, more than a quarter again what you're claiming is a cheap, broken build. You need to be consistent if a perceived low cost of the force powers is something you're trying to build your argument on.

#6 Your math

[ADMIN: Edited for content.]

This…

I…

I can't even begin to address this here. It'll be a full separate post. There so much wrong with what you posted…

So, I acknowledge that you are entitled to your opinion, and if you don't like how Move works, okay.

That doesn't mean you can make up facts (your math is wrong), ignore rules (activating the dark side cost more than strain), or present inconsistent arguments (What character XP value do you want evaluate) to make it look like your opinion is in anyway based on reality.

[ADMIN: Edited for content.]

-WJL

Lethal Dose: let me say that I haven't noticed much of your posting on these boards, but I've learned a lot about you in a very short time.

Mea Culpa re: I did over the course of my argument change from silhuette 4 to silhuette 3 objects being thrown around. I did this for two reasons:

1.) the difficulty increase of throwing a size 4 object over a size 3 object IMO does not really justify the 10+ points of inflicted damage. the avg damage of the roll may actually increase, but few things have 30+ life, and even if they do, you probably shouldn't be fighting them at that stage in a game. that seems like an escalation.

2.) the xp barrier, while small between the strength upgrades for a size 3 and size 4 object is something noticable, and I am acknowledging RD's point about xp being a finite resource for the player/character.

speaking of resources,

Mea Culpa re: the destiny point cost. In this instance I felt that it was a non issue because:

1.) As a GM I often spend back destiny so that players always have that option, and not doing that does punish the other players at the table for one player's decisions. That being said, if a player was being abusive, that would be a strategy to reduce the chances of a FR 2 character lifting rancors.

2.) There are few (IMO worthwhile) abilties that key off destiny (deal 3-5 additioanl damage on a hit is often the benefit) and upgrading while it does happen, is not as awesome as going from 5 to 30 damage (using the strength upgrade to lift your maximum silhuette if available).

3.) in the face of other costs such as XP as RD pointed out, starting characteristics, overall character viability, and strain which would make you incapacitated if you fell unconscious, I felt the destiny cost was fairly trivial.

But, as you pointed out, i did not highlight it and that is something I should have done to make a crystal clear and 100% transparent arguement.

In the spirit of making transparent arguements I'd like to further explain my math, so that we can all understand where I'm coming from, and If I'm wrong we can discuss it.

I am using the principles of binomial distrobution to determine the chances (ahem… probability) of various outcomes. From those odds we can determine the avg results of a roll will be, and then from there we can create likely outcomes to a given situation. Now my stats is fairly rusty, but I'm concerned with basically 1-2 significant digits of probability and broad strokes in 5 percent brackets is fine to me, since I am long since used to the d20 distrobution. To make that make more sense, the difference between 54%, 53% and 55% to me is less material than the difference between 40% and 50%, etc. that is my POv and if that bothers people, feel free to be more specific.

A force die has 3/12 facings with 2 FP, 2/12 facings with 1 Fp, 6/12 facings with 1 DP and 1/12 facings with 2 DP.

For my arguement a FR 2 character would roll 2 force dice with a move activation to attack with a size 3 object.
-There is a 3/12 chance on either die that the 2 FP side will come up. since these probabilities are not dependent on each other (the result on one die does not affect the result on the other die) that means there is a base 6/12, 50% odds that two FP will be rolled on 2 force dice.
-Additionally, if the single force die facing is rolled on one die (2/12 chance of that), there is a 2/12 chance that the other die will also yield a single force die result. Those to multipled (since the desired outcome of two requires them both to come up as oneFP) is 4/144 or 2.7777 repeating %.
-I don't think it's proper to count the double FP results when calculating the conditional odds of rolling one FP on a die. IIRC those odds are already calculated into the first step. If I'm wrong the probability increases, but negligibly so.
-50% +2.7777…% is approximately 53%, and for my purposes I'm going to round up to 55%, since I like multiples of 5. YMMV.

What this means to me is that a FR 2 has a 55ish % to activate the move object with two FP, and with upgrades this means with an avg of 2 "turns" a padawan could lift very large objects in ways very inconsistent with the fiction of the universe. Ignoring the attacking option, the out of combat utility for this is amazing. Even in the force soup'ed saga ed, a 5th level character (I think fair to say equivalent at least to an FR2) could not accomplish this feat without d20 rolls of 18-20, (a slight 15%). The ability to lift colossal objects (size 4ish) at a 55% chance was around… level 16 (24cha, with focus and training is 7+8+10=+25 mod and the DC was 35. while the games are not comparable, this is a major increase in the efficacy and reliability of powerful options for players, and I think may be a bit much.

As to the combat rolls:
Ability Die: 3/8 sides with 1 success; 1/8 sides with 2 success; an avg succes per roll of 5/8, or .625
Profficiency die: 5/12 sides, 1 success; 1/12 sides with triumph; 2/12 sides with 2 success; a total of 10/12 avg success or .8333333 repeating.
Difficulty Die: 2/8 sides, 1 failure; 1/8 sides, 2 failure; total avg failure per roll 4/8, or .5.
Challenge Die: 4/12 sides, 1 failure; 1/12 sides, 1 despair; 2/12 sides 2 failure; total avg failure per roll 9/12, or .75

I my example, I pointed to a character with discipline 4 and will power 2. this provides a base of 4 ability dice, 2 of which can be upgraded to proficiency dice. By activating intense focus, you can upgrade one more ability die, for a total of 3 prof dice and 1 ability die. By adding the avg success per roll for each die, I attain a result of .8333+.8333+.8333+.625, or 3.125 avg success per roll.

Now, a size 3 object is difficulty 3 to attack with. Three difficulty dice each have an average failure of .5 per roll, for an average failure of 1.5 per roll. since failure and success cancel 1:1, that leaves 1.625 average successes per roll.

Now, if the target was a nemesis with adversary 3, each of those difficulty would be upgraded to a challenge. that would result in an avg failure of 2.25, or .75+.75+.75. That leaves an avg success per roll of .875.

Since one success is all you need, I feel the odds are strongly in your favor as a PC to cream the clock of a target. Aiming and cover are non factors, since boost and setback dice cancel out for the purposes of success and failure.

---

a quick definition: Punish; Inflict a penalty or sanction on (someone) as retribution for an offense.

Consequence; A result or effect of an action or condition.

They may be semantics, but semantics are important. Punsih is punitive, a penalty or sanction, reribution. it is something that brings an errant element back in line forcefully and without consent. It often implies something that is done after the infraction, crime, or transgression. It is an inherently negative word.

Consequence is nuetral. it is the result of an action or choice. It does not imply that the (in this case player) made a bad choice, but a choice with a result. hopeful a GM spells out the consequences of using the darkside, and those consequences may be drastic. thaty may be steep.

Hopefully the GM does not punish players for using the darkside once the game has started. That implies that the characters are violating a rule, as opposed to exercising a choice and accepting the consequence. Punishing the player can seem arbitrary, because it is retribution, (and in the instance of not spending back destiny) can often affect more than just the player commiting the offense.

And i say player, because while the character is doing the action the player is making the choice. Rarely does a character perform ana ction the player does not choose.

While punishing the character may seem seperate, it invariably reflects on the player whom decided to commit the transgression, and is thus a commentary on the players decision. A consequence is simply the end result of a players action, and has not inherent motive behind it.

semantics, and this is all predicated on the ideathat the consequences are laid out in advance, other wise they may seem like a punishment, but I find using less negative words, examining the connotation of the meaning of a word and applying it intentionally and deliberately makes a big difference in my life. YMMV.

Please feel free to constructively address my math, Lethal dose or anyone, since , by my own admission, my stats are a tad rusty.

So we're clear on the bare minimum costs of the characters we're evaluating, I created the following:

OMG I can't beleive that worked… *ahem*

Anyway, if you create a human Mercenary Hired gun, it would take at least 155 XP to have FR2 and have the ability to attack with a size 3 object using the force. As a human, thats creation + 45 xp. To create the character described:

Thebearisdriving said:

would take and additional 80 xp. If someone sees a more efficient way to do build this, feel free to correct me. A character built on 235 XP is fairly substantial. That is more than double the creation points. The 125 pts beyond base would take about 8 sessions @ 15 XP/session. Is that too much too fast? /shrug. Your milage may vary.

My point in posting this was that the "Move Monster" may not be all that unbalanced out of the gate, and takes at least some play sessions to reach the power levels described.

Next post: The Math behind a Move power attack.

-WJL

LethalDose said:

And if you look back to my first poost, ignoring intense focus which was reaching, I said an XP budget of approximately that level. Infact i said this character would be possible at approximately 4-6 sessions. So far, we agree. that's awesome.

Yeah. The differences start showing up here.

For abbreviations, I’m using the following:

LSP: Light side points/pips
DSP: Dark side points/pips
I may report LSP and DSP as LSP/DSP

Y: Proficiency Die
G: Ability Die
R: Challenge Die
P: Difficulty Die

Force Dice Results (Deterministic)

Two independent, fair 12-sided dice provide 144 possible outcomes. Many of these outcomes are indistinguishable. The 10 distinguishable (“unique”) results are:

The combinations were derived using the face numbers described in the EotE book:

Faces 1-6: 1 DSP, Face 7: 2 DSP, Faces 8-9: 1 LSP, Faces 10 - 12 : 2 LSP. So two force dice (#1 & #2) could roll a 1 and 8, respectively. This would translate to 1 (Die #1 = 1, Face 1 = 1 DSP) and one LSP (Die #2 = 8, face 8 = 1 LSP), or 1/1.

If we’re agnostic about the number DSP’s generated, we can degenerate the table to view the probabilities of producing the different LSP totals

Agnostic of DSP results, there is a 14.6% (6.3% + 8.3%) chance of rolling 3 LSP or better, and a 46.5% (2.8% + 8.3% + 31.9%) probability of rolling 2 or more.

So, you’re estimates are off by around 10% here. I think what you did was double count the events that BOTH dice come up 2 LSP and you ended up overestimating the probability of 2 LSP by about 10%

So, if we’re discussing an attack with a size 3 object at close range, you need 2 LSP (activate strength upgrade without range upgrade). With FR2, there is a 46.5% chance you won’t need destiny points to activate it. There is a 19.4% chance that you will generate 1 LSP and need 1 destiny point. There is a 34% chance that you will need to 2 destiny points.

Picking up a size 3 object and attacking close range is picking up and X-wing and hitting a target a few meters away, which I just find weird. So let’s look at a medium range attack (actually not even possible with the described build). There’s a 44% chance that you will only get 2 pips in total, and have NO recourse at all! There is only about a 15% chance you’ll pull this off without pulling on the dark side.

Dice Simulation (Stochasitic)

The method above used above is called a “deterministic approach” because the aggregate values are directly determined based on the probabilities of the underlying processes (the results of each dice). This method works well above because there are only 10 possible outcomes. However, in more complicated event sets, like skill pools, don’t work well like because of the large number of potential outcomes.

An alternative, and more efficient, approach is a stochastic method, in which a large number of results are simulated, and proportion of results that fit a profile is interpreted as the probability of that probability occurring.

I wrote code to do this in an open source stat program I use frequently called R. I can provide this code if anyone is interested. The results, given a large number of simulated rolls, converge on the deterministic results. As an example, applying the method to the FR 2 results, using 100K simulations (takes around 30s), produces the following probabilities.

**** close. Even with a sample as small as 5k , the estimates are within ½% And it takes a very, VERY small fraction of the time.

Dice Pool Results

The described force user has Willpower 2, Discipline 4. Using Move to attack with a silhouette 3 object is a Hard difficulty (PPP). Without any other modifiers, the pool will consist of YYGGPPP. Based on 50K simulations, this roll has a 69.0% probability of success. This sample shows the average roll produces a net of 1.4 successes, but this value has very little to do with the probability of the success.

Throw it at an NPC with Adversary 3, the pool becomes YYGGRRR. Based on 50K simulations, the probability of success drops to 53.7%. The average roll produce 0.69 net success. Again, has almost nothing to do with the probability of success.

Activate the Intense focus, spend your strain, and the pool is YYYGPPP. Again, 50k simulations success probability of 73.9%, mean successes produced 1.65 net successes.

By now it should be clear that none of these rolls are a sure thing. Now here’s the kicker…

The Composite Pool

You have to hit both these rolls at the same time.

The Force roll and skill roll are independent, meaning the results of one have no effect on the results of the other. The means the probability of the both being successful is the product of each event being successful. So we have everything we need.

Character : FR 2, Willpower 2, Discipline 4

Action : Attack with Size 3 object at close range. Requires 2 LSP, difficulty Hard

Resolution :

Probability 2 or more LSP on roll: 46.5%

Probability YYGGPPP is successful: 69.0%

Probability 2 or more LSP on roll AND YYGGPPP is successful: (0.465)(0.690) = 32.1%

You can apply this to any combination of the results above.

So if you think that this character is a still a rolling bad@$$ with this kind of success, then I think we have different definitions of "bad@$$".

F*** me that was long.

-WJL

PS Holy BALLS we finally got an edit button.

Nice bit of stats work there, WJL.

Really shows how bloody hard it's going to be to do force users in EOTE…

Oh, and the edit button's been around for some time.

aramis said:

There's an edit button? Where?

Lethal dose:

some nice stats work. The odds of a padawan being able to achieve 2+ FP is lower than my estimation, true, but high enough at 46% that its of concern. Note, that means a padawan has a decent chance to lift size 3 and 4 objects. That is really not what is reflected in the fiction and films of Star Wars.

Lifting a rancor sized object is not something a padawan should be capable of without the dark side. Lifting a starship is not something a padawan should be capable of doing basically at all. I find a serious disconnect between what the system replicates and what is presented to us in a wealth of in universe material.

a young Jedi knight should be getting close to these percentages, which means at least FR 3. IMO.

Also, since you got the code written, could you do a simulation on a soldier with the same stats but Instead make it difficulty 1, and 2.

Thank you for your work. I appreciate the correction. Like I said, my stats they are a rusty.

Thebearisdriving said:

Thebearisdriving said:

YYGGPP: 79.9% success probability, mean successes 1.92

YYGGP: 89.3% success probability, mean successes 2.41

both on 50k sim.

And I'm done. I will not be posting on these threads anymore.

In some threads I'm being called "completely clueless" and worse, I've recieved harrassing PM's, and these recieve no attention by the admins. However, I have been repeatedly censured by admins publicly, including the deletion of the paragraph including an apology to poster I responded to and appearently offended and told to avoid personal attacks.

I can admit I am brusque with my posts. For this or some other reason, it appears that my input here is not welcome. So it will no longer be provided.

-WJL

LethalDose said:

Hey LD: if you choose not to post, that's your call. i can't tell you what to do. After the initial brush up I actually have enjoyed this. you've challanged my idea and made me really think about my position… despite the "brusque"-ness, i appreciate that element.

As an additional fyi, anydice.com is a great tool that might save you some time in doing the dice calculations. i found it today and I think it's great.

Now, I stand by my initial argument that moving massive objects is too easy as it stands. But I have adjusted my thought process, courtesy of both rD and LD.

I propose increasing the fp cost of moving silhuette 3 and 4 objects by one. thus to move those objects would cost 3 Fp instead of two.

Inpart, raving Dork had an excellent point that pushing the fp cost any higher than that runs the risk of making those abilities an XP suck. After thinking about that I agree. Also, LD was very right when he pointed out that the odds of gainign 2 FP on a FR 2 roll is less than 50%, so my initial impresson was off.

However, I stand by the idea that FR 2 characters should have an extremely infrequent chance of lifting objects that size. Using a dice tool (anydice.com) I did some calculations and this is what I came up with: (this result assumes Darkside points are not to be used)

ouput of 2d{ 0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,1,2,2,2}
FP, % chance of getting at least.
0, 100
1, 65.97%
2, 46.53%
3, 14.58%
4, 6.25%

So a padawan could have an even chance to move a human, even a bantha, but once something approached x wing size it gets hard. If the padawan tries to really throw the x wing it's nearly impossible, though still possible. Same with the falcon, or other ludicrously sized object.

However, for (the theoretical) FR4 character the odds look much better.

ouput of 4d{ 0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,1,2,2,2}
FP, % chance of getting at least.
2, 75.19%
3, 49.67%
4, 31.57%

So now the jedi knight has the same odds of lifting the falcon as the padawan has of lifting the bantha. the jedi knight would have a breezy time lifting the bantha, and could even hurl that sucker pretty reliably. even hurlign the falcon is within the realm of possibility, but still a long odd.

This small change to the strength upgrades really curtails the ability of a padawan to do ridiculous lifting, w/o removing the possibility of amazing feats, especially when willing to tap into the darkside. This can make a good character hook for an exiled force user, skilled enough in the force to lift objects of imense size, but to muster the power reliably requires using the darkside, at least until his connection with the force grows, which is so very star wars.

I did a little spec building for characters. using the same strategy LD outlined earlier for making a Force user, but not purchasing the top two strength upgrades, you can make a force user that can "nova" for impressive damage after only Approximately 4 sessions, but to do so will possibly require tapping into the darkside. 20ish damage is still good, and the "build" can occur for around 160 xp for a human. Even more impressive to me is the fact that for 50 more xp, you can increase you willpower to 3 and your discipline to 5, making for a very accurate flinger of knives and cutlery.

I spec'd out a rodian bounty hunter/gadgeteer for contrast using the same xp budget. Aiming pretty purely for damage the build looks like this:

Now, this power house is going to obliterate the force users average damage. At short range (same as the force user) his attacks are difficulty 1:

output d{0,-1,-2,0,0,0,0,-1} Dificulty Die
+d{0,1,1,2,0,0,0,1} Ability Die
+4d{0,1,1,2,2,0,1,1,1,0,0,1} prof Dice
Successes, % chance to get at least
1, 96.26%
2, 87.78%
3, 71.32%
4, 48.81%

A brutal monster, and with a blaster rifle and Deadly accuracy, not to mention the extra successes likely on a roll, the base damage is 15. And all that after only 5 sessions.

Now the curve here is that the character doesn't have much of anywhere to grow that dirctly increases like the force user. but that in turn means that the bounty hunter can become more versatile.

However, using move as a power can accomplish things this bounty hunter can't. if the Force user attains the second control upgrade, he could rip the power core out of a ship that he is in, or collapse an entrance way. he could actually lift the other characters up to a higher elevation, and even throw cover in between his allies and the enemy. there are a lot of non-combat, or at least non-direct damage applications for Move, and not for shooting with a rifle.

As always, feel free to disagree. Thanks to RD and LD I think I've made my thoughts pretty clear, and if you're still reading this cool. That's always appreciated. I won't be upset if the devs don't dig the idea, but I want my voice to be heard, so score one for the interwebs.

i think the force was more to be used as a tool than a end all spec it can be powerfull to those who can think creativly with it.

While I realize that I'm a bit late on this, felt obligated to comment that the Force Powers are insanely underpriced at only 10XP per Power. It should cost a minimum of 25XP in my opinion, and each "additional" Force Power should cost double the XP of the previous Force Power.

Being able to go from nothing, to having Influence, Sense and Move in just 2 games, in a setting where Force has no teacher, and where people aren't suppose to have easy access to Force Powers, is a bit much. Making the costs 25 for the 1st, 50 for the second, and 100 for the last means that when someone is Force Sensitive, they're not gonna be Jedi comparable without years of experience… Decades even.

When the Force book comes out, there could be reductions in the Talent tree (or whole new trees) that remove that multiple, and reduce the cost to 10 each for the correct Career/Specialization, but for the Outer Rim, such ease is too much.

Seriously, in 3 or 4 games, you can go from a Merc gun slinger to a Force Adept of Reknown at the current XP costs…

Gryphynx said:

Given that the Basic effects are really not much more than short-range limited-utility tricks, 10 XP is plenty for a cost, as you've got to spend even more XP to buy those Upgrades, some of which (predominiately the Control Upgrades) cost twice as much due to covering more than one column in the row they're listed in.

There's also the fact that the character needs to have Force Rating 1 in order to buy any of those powers, which is going to cost at least 20 XP (if it's the character's second specialization), and even then are going to be of fairly limited utility until the character burns about 100 XP to get to the Force Rating talent to increase their Force Rating to 2.

So while the initial abilities might seem cheap, the fact that it takes a lot of XP to really make them useful counteracts that in spades.

Donovan Morningfire said:

They're quite a bit more than "limited utility tricks".

While it may be "more powerful" if you pump a lot more points into it (which you're going to do if you spent the 20 to be Force Sensitive anyhows), that doesn't negate the cost problems of getting the Powers. And that makes them a lot more than just "useful".

Point remains that, in a setting where you're trying to discourage an entourage of Force Users amongst the players, making it so that anyone who goes aheads and spends the 20 points to be Force Sensitive, is going to spread out to all 3 areas with how cheap and easy it is to do so (and how effective it is to do so). If you've spent the 20 points, and since you're going to climb the Talent Tree regardless (having spent those 20 points, and get that 2nd Force Point) making it so that you're Jedi-Comparable at such a low cost, is counterproductive to the goal.

What would be thematic, and balancing, would be to make it so that most people stick to a theme (one of the 3), and only branch out if they've really mastered the one area, and even then, there might be better things to buy. Right now, there's -nothing- better to buy if you've gone ahead and become an Exile. You're going to end up being a Sensitive Influence Move Force User with Force Rating 2.

My way, and you end up with a Politico who uses Influence to help his career choice, and him spending points to master both his Career and Influence Power, and only buying into the other stuff if he's maxxed both Trees, and even then, he might likely choose to instead be a Scholar instead. No way, in the current system, is he going to do anything other than max the Force Trees once he's bought the Exile Class.

Gryphynx said:

I disagree. I think that, even ignoreing the thousands of RP reasons to not go all out on force exile, that there are plenty of better ways to spend points. None of the force powers can allow you to fly, or rebuild a broken speeder, or sneak into a building without anyone seeing you, or patch up an injury. There are some very nifty things on the talent tree and the powers are useful but they can't do everything. If the GM strands your maxed out Force exile in the dune sea or the jungles of rodia they'd fail all their survival tests and starve. If they had to navigate an asteriod field they'd crash. Slice a computer? nope. Force powers are just another tool in the toolbox and while they might have more general use they still can't beat the specialist skills and talents.

I do think the powers might need a slightly more painful stick to go with the carrot but it's not to the point of being that game breaking IMHO.

Vonpenguin said:

Just an FYI, none of any of the Talent Trees will allow you to fly, rebuild a broken speeder, or sneak into a building, or patch up an injury. Those are skills, and a Force User will likely have as many skills as a non-force user. So, what we should be comparing then is the Talent Trees… rather than Apples to Oranges.

So, in reference to the examples stated…(ignoring the fact that Move Force Power can indeed let you fly… ) Even a Mechanic is no better at rebuilding a broken speeder really. Well, a -little- better since he can ignore a couple (max 2) of Setback dice, but skill roll is still requisite. Same with all the examples, and for these people to really be "better", they expend more into their Talent Tree than a Force User does in his (and his abilities are far more impressive). 300 points will cap a Talent Tree. 300 points will cap all 3 Force Power Talent Trees.

However, that's not the point.

The setting is suppose to be force-light (or even force-nonexistent if possible), and yet the rules make it so that being Force Sensitive is the best option, and is cheap as heck. Most Force players are going to rush to get Force 2, and since they're there, a bonus Willpower point in the process for an extra 25 points, and the next 175 points (of 300 to cap a Talent Tree) that others spend on Talent Trees is used to be really good at at least 1 of the Force Powers with points to spare, and possibly spend that 175 points on all 3 trees since 30 lets you have all 3, and buying just the 5 point powers for 85 points lets you have good range, strength, etc to all 3 powers with 60 points to spend on level 10 Talents in any of the 3 Powers.

It's not comparable. While thematically people might not be interested in playing a Force user…there is a ton more bang for your buck to do so. And this in a setting that's not suppose to have nor encourage much Force usage. 25/50/100 in lleu of 10/10/10 really fixes this.

Gryphynx said:

Which, BTW, the quick-path up the Force Sensitive Talent Tree to get that Force 2 will also do with its Sense Danger Talent.

"Bang for your buck" … that's a philosophy I rarely meet when it comes to playing roleplaying games (as a GM that is, I see it a lot on the interwebz), monopoly sure, but rarely rpgs. I'd like to say I'm not judging, but I am, but that is not the point. I read somewhere the so-called "Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game. " So, if the prices are too low in your opinion, change them, increase them.

From my point of view and with the various players I've been gaming with over the last 20 odd years this sentiment of economy thinking when it comes to developing characters is … contrary to my (ours) spirit of roleplaying and is more fitting in competitive games that are about winning, where fellow players are opponents, rather than allies, compatriots, etc.

Still, it also comes down to how rewards are being distributed, but also how you let players acquire new talent trees, new talents and new force powers. For instance I don't let my players acquire new talents in-game without a plausible in-game series of events, same goes for force powers. Talents are more difficult to limit in this fashion, but even in this my players sometimes decides that they cannot acquire before the right "trigger" has occured, even if they want the talent badly. Same for skills. While this might seem boring and limiting to the nonsensical, it makes for good roleplaying, good character development, good stories. I'm not saying its superior to other styles of play (although really I am, but thats not the point), I'm just suggesting that a different approach to the game than "bang for buck" might improve the stories, the game - if people are invested in playing a roleplaying game as opposed to a war game of some sort.

Its obvious that the force sensitives have superior capabilities when compared to non-sensitives, but not in all venues, also there is the consequences for openly using force powers. A gadgeteer or assassin have talents that are superior to the force sensitives in some areas, the scoundrel too. Also, as you say, force sensitives are not really supposed to be widespread in the game, but the option has been included - arguably to appease the fanbase which cannot live without that aspect present; me amongst them. It is up to the GM to limit the presence of force sensitives in his or her game. For this reason I rarely promote the force sensitivity tree in EotE, and in earlier swrpgs rarely promoted the force sensitive classes. If someone wants to play force sensitive I try to find out why, and also I consider the player in question. I have trust in my players to not power monger and go crazy - and if they do I punish them, and they know this.

The one force sensitive I have in my group have spent most of her XP on skills, a few talents on the FSE talent tree, and a few on the assassin tree. She has one force power, sense, with one upgrade. I had to push her into taking that upgrade too, because I found that she needed it and it fits her character concept. The power-gamer in my group is actually the medic it seems, although she does it in a roundabout way that fits with her concept, the stories we've created and events I have thrown at them to handle.

The math of yours is probably correct, your sentiments understood and not wrong per se, but they also promote a very different approach to playing rpgs that I cannot relate to, one which I find destructive to collaboratively creating stories in a shared imaginary space.

Buying into the FSE tree is the same price as buying into career tree, 20XP if its the second specialisation. This can be done at character creation, which is the most likely option in my games. If this is desird at a later date I need some **** good reason or event to let this happen. The force powers are slightly on the low-end of the price spectrum when compared to the talent trees, that is true, but considering the consequences for using them, the price to get there, and what you have to sacrifice to maximise these powers I think its not that bad. My force sensitive player also reacted on the low price, but the advantage for the sense upgrade is good, but not god-like in power. Also, with the updates Move and Influence needs skill uses too, which makes it more of an investment to have a greater chance of success.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I do not share your concern either.

But then, you seem to actually be completely agreeing with me. Nobody is questioning how one plays in this discussion, and considering this forum is about the Beta version, the only real topic here is if something is balanced and works. You agree that Force is terribly cheap, and the only counter is that your group doesn't actually abuse it any.

I've been running games since '90, and have yet to run a group where someone didn't want to optimize their character whilst aiming for theme. I'm more concerned when players don't optimize, as that tends to indicate a lack of attachment, not aiming for survival. In my test group, we have 6 players testing this game, of the 6, 1 is an android, 1 is a pilot who just decided he hates the Force, the other 4 are Force users. Admittedly, this is the 4th time we've re-made characters (since we'd pre-agreed that the objective of the games over the holidays was going to be just to test the system). First thing the players quit doing at Char Gen was spending points on Talents, and spending almost all their points on Characteristics. Second thing they started doing was spending their opening XP on being Exiles. Interestingly, each for their own thematic reason.

Whilst the primary force player did indeed start out as an Exile with as many points as possible towards Force 2 so that he'd have it by game 3, he's only had an interest in Move Power, and prior to my changes (I increased costs to 25/50/100) maxxed all three trees early on just because they were cooler than talent trees. I mean, even if your only reason for taking Exile is to be Telekinetic, a practically free (1 game) ability to Influence someone into "these are not the droids you're looking for" (10 for Influence, 5 for Control Upgrade) is too good to pass up. And raising it to past that is still more interesting than picking up Toughened or Grit.

Not saying everyone will, but this is about balance of the game, not how your group plays it.

The others, a Scout who wanted Uncanny Senses and Sense Power because it fit his theme, and a Politico who realized that he'd be a lot more influential if he took Exile with the Influence Power, both did similarly. Picking up Telekinetic powers because they're very useful, and fit the character theme just fine, considering they are Force Sensitive by nature. The last, he just wanted the Talent Tree because he wanted to convert his Assassin into a Jedi Wannabe, and is trying to get his own Light Saber. All 4 had thematic, interesting character concepts and themes, but it's just too easy to expand past that theme and in the process, expand the character concept to include these extras.

Generally speaking, I find that players play what their sheet shows. Rather than limit their purchases to rigid concepts, they allow character concept to evolve with the character sheet. It's great that there are groups out there who lack any inherent desire to be Force Users with how inexpensive it is, but that doesn't translate to a solid cost for Force Powers.

However, again, these are all besides the point. The point, is that it's too easy to be a force user with all the force powers in a game where there's not suppose to be that many Force Sensitive people. You WILL have games, like this one I'm running, where people take up Force Sensitive, and expand into the 3 powers, and end up with games that are Force heavy where they should be Force light. The followup point thus being, if the game is intended to be Force Light, costs will need to be changed.

How people play in a particular group, has no bearing on that.

then you need to stress it to your players that using the force has consequences beyond the fact that hunted down and killed. Your entire family line might be extinqushed as well or enslaved.

How visible is using the Force? Assuming we stick to the intent and are playing Outer Rim planets, even if someone wonders why they believed the guy who said "These are not the droids you're looking for", why would he assume that the Force (described as mythology to Outer Rim people) was in use? Even in the movies, telekinetic usage didn't require hand gestures, though hand gestures did seem to help at times, allowing enemies to blind-side their opponent with heavy objects. And of course, the Sense is how recognizable? There are no outward signs…

Now, if they were going around by flying through the air without jetpacks, convincing everyone to do things totally against their nature, etc, that'd be one thing… but most use of the Force, especially in an area where the Force Sensitive KNOW to not flagrantly use their powers for everyone to see, would be too subtle to notice.

Gryphynx said:

How visible is it in the movies and Clone Wars animated series? There's your answer as to how "visible" the Force is in EotE. There were no sparkles around the stormtrooper's head when Obi-Wan said "these aren't the droids you're looking for." There were no cartoonish waves of air to indicate that Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were telekinetically blasting away battle droids while aboard the Trade Federation control ship. No tendrils of energy as Dooku lifted, chocked, then tossed Obi-Wan during their rematch aboard Grievous' flagship in Revenge of the Sith.

Being a Force-user in Star Wars (particularly the EotE version) is not the same thing as being a Wizard in D&D. The powers are a lot weaker, especially given the absolute best result a Force-user can hope for on their Force Dice is 4 Force Points with a Force Rating of 2, with the average result of one Force Point per die rolled seeming to be the norm. And with a Force Rating of 1, and a decent chunk of those times the PC is going to have to spend a Light Side Destiny Point and suffer some strain in order to get that Force Point due to the Force Dice having more Dark Side facings than Light Side. Having played and seen played such "low level" Force-users, their abiltiies are far from game-breaking unless they've sunk a lot of their XP into just buying the power upgrades. XP that other PCs will have spent raising skills and buying talents that can be used more frequently without drawing the kind of heat that being a Force-user will draw if discovered.

Also, it says right in the section on creating a character that a player wanting a Force-Sensitive PC should get their GM's permission before doing so. Force-users are supposed to be quite rare, particularly duing the Dark Times and Rebellion Era, either due to being hunted down (the fate of most Jedi), in hiding (most Force Traditions), or directly serving the Emperor.

If you as the GM aren't comfortable with having one or more Force-senstive PCs, then simply tell your players "sorry guys, but no Force-users this time out."