Hello playtesters,

This is the second iteration of the Force feedback thread. I ask that you post all of your feedback here, and that you please do so in a civil manner. Thanks!

I posted a suggestion regarding a revision to the Move Basic Power that seems to have gotten lost in the chatter.

Rather than simply keeping the range limit to Engaged (which runs into issues as there's not any kind of GM consensus on how far "Engaged" actually means), how about expanding the basic power to be able to affect an object that's out to Close Range.

This has the benefit of upgrading Move's Basic Power from "fancy party trick" to "semi-useful ability," which the Sense and Influence Basic Powers already are (read emotions or cause Strain damage, respectively).

Also, replace one of Range Upgrades (thinking 4th Row) with a Control Upgrade that enables the Force-user to activate Move's Basic Power (and just the Basic Power; no Upgrades permitted) without having to roll your Force Rating. It'd still take an action, but it'd allow for trivial things like qucikly grabbing a fallen weapon or floating a piece of fruit over to your love interest's plate without needing any sort of roll. And by prohibiting the usage of upgrades, it remains a minor but useful trick.

Or, if you want to keep the need to roll your Force Rating, simply have the Control Upgrade move the action required to use Move's Basic Power from an Action to a Maneuver.

I like those ideas.

A couple of other things I'd like to see clarified:

-I'd like to see clarification on reuse of Force powers and the beneficial effects of concentration on using Force powers. For example can we assume to succeed at maximum magnitude of Move if time is no object and we can concentrate fully? Or do we keep on rolling until we get what we want anyway?

-I know it's not very specific but I'd like to see the basic Force powers like Move be a little more loosely defined to match the abstract nature and openess of the game and empower the GM and players in this concensus game to make calls without having to discuss if something is engaged and the like.

For move how long do I have a hold of something? Can I hold someone over a cliff and interrogate them without fear of accidentally dropping them for example? Is the duration different if I'm not in conflict and have complete concentration?

Specifically is this move a Force push/thrust or a grab and move? If the latter how long can I grab?

OK I'm being dense but what does this mean:

"The Force user
may activate this multiple times, increasing the range by this
number each time. However, remember the Force user must
still spend Force points to activate the power's actual effects."

Does that mean I can activate it multiple times in the same round or activate it in consecutive rounds to keep holding and moving something farther way? And each time I use range it costs an extra LS point? If my Force rating is low I don't have the LS points to use and if it's high why get too many ranks in range if I can just max out Range 1 or 2 with my bunch of points anyway?

I'm really shakey with "However, remember the Force user must still spend Force points to activate the power's actual effects." Is actual effects the same as base effect? I get that you pay base effect and then pay upgrades but it seems like they are saying something more here. Do I have to repay the base effect each time I use range in the same round?

For example to use the base effect with range 1 twice what is the cost?

Base (1 ls) + Range 1 first time (1ls) + Base (1ls) + Range 1 second time (1ls) = 4 LS?
Base (1 ls) + Range 1 first time (1ls) + Range 1 second time (1ls) = 3 LS?

Any help here appreciated. This seems a little cumbersome and that's before you add magnitude and control.

usgrandprix said:

I agree it's a tad cumbersome, but from how I'm reading it, you'd pay the extra LS for each extra time you wanted to apply your Range Upgrades. So your second example (Base + Range 1st + Range 2nd) would be the correct one, whether you've purchased just one Range Upgrade or all of them. It does have a feel of "future-proofing" for when being able to officially raise your Force Rating above a 2 becomes available, but I could be reading more into it than what's intended.

There's not text regarding how long the effects of an individual "move" power lasts, and the text regarding the duration of force powers is far from specific (pg178, "Ongoing Effects"). Also, the other power lists how long effects last, almost universally, as "One round of combat", so after that round, the effect ends, and it is logical to assume that most powers are in effect for one round in combat unless explicitly otherwise stated (typically via upgrades). I believe this means there is plenty of room to introduce upgrades that modify the duration of a move, which by logic above, would ends after each round. In combat uses for the duration upgrade can include:

• Holding up an object to drop on pursuers, as an ambush, which could take multiple rounds.

• Holding up a gate while friends escaped, which would take multiple rounds

• Holding up an object to provide cover for multiple rounds.

• Holding off debris while you or a friend performs a complex task where the debris will fall

Given the substantial difficulty of holding anything of substantial size aloft for repeated rounds in combat (if you even interpret the power to keep things aloft for the time, which my gaming group has unanimously decided is wrong), there is a need for the upgrade below. The upgrade represents a characters ability to keep aloft an object that was already lifted. Anyone who's lifted weights or moved knows that it's easier to keep the barbell or box in the "lifted" state than it is to get it lifted in the first place. There's basic physics behind this, but we don't need the specifics for the game.

The upgrade allows the player to maintain a lifted object in this state by dedicating some part of his ability to use the force while he maintains it, similar to how the Sense ability allows a character to maintain active defenses by dedicating some part of their ability to use the force. The difference here is that the defensive ability requires no roll to get the "ball rolling", as it were, has a smaller effect than what is proposed below, but can also be triggered as reactive ability. In this case, the effect is larger (does not require multiple rolls), but requires a successful roll to activate (the object must first be lifted) and cannot be used reactively.

The upgrade is a logical extension of the current move power, like the "cause strain" ability is an extension of the influence power.

Duration Upgrade: Move

Ongoing effect[Force Die]: A character may choose to keep one lifted object, not used in an attack, aloft until he chooses to end the effect, or uses the object to attack.

The character may not move the object from its current location (doing so would require a new roll, which would not include the die used to hold the object aloft. See ongoing effects for specifics).

If the object is used to attack, a new roll to lift the object is not needed, but the discipline roll is still required and imposes all the same modifiers in effect otherwise.

If projectiles or objects strike the object held aloft using this ability, the character must make a discipline roll to maintain the effect (Easy difficulty for character scale weapon strikes or silhouette 0 objects, average for silhouette 1 objects, Hard for silhouette 2 objects or vehicle scale weapon strikes, Daunting for silhoutte 3 objects, Formidable for 4, etc). Upgrade the difficulty of the check once for each size the striking object is larger than the object held aloft.

The GM may require a new force activation roll anytime the situation substantially changes.

I can see arguments to make this a "control" power, but I think it fits better as a duration power, given the focus of the power and that the duration upgrades in influence and sense work very differently from each other.

Any constructive input is appreciated.

-WJL

Hmmm…….

Indeed…..indeed……..

@usgrandprix

I think when you buy more ugrades and then you spend a Force Point, you're using that upgrade by default as well. So, where you'd have to activate and spend more FP's to achieve a greater range with the basic, when you buy the upgrades then you wouldn't need to blow as many to achieve that greater range.

A cool example: Having Move with Range 1 would need to be activated several times in order to achieve a farther range, where as having Move with Range 2 wouldn't need to be activated as many times.

So thus, buying the Upgrades saves you Force Points in the end by not having to activate your powers as many times.

LethalDose said:

Question then. Since the two existing Ongoing Effects (both under Sense) permit the Force-user to take other actions (due to their reactive nature), would this proposed Ongoing Effect allow the same, or would the Force-user have to spend their Action to maintain the effect from round to loosely-defined round? Your proposed Duration Upgrade doesn't say, leaving it very open to interpretation.

If they are able to take other Actions in addition to keeping things lifted, that breaks with the vast majority of what we've seen regarding telekinesis in almost all the Star Wars media, be it movies, books, comics, animated series, and video games. Given Yoda is largely accepted as the gold standard of what a fully-trained and compentent Jedi can accomplish, it seems a tad odd that a self-trained minor Force-user (what the PCs are currently limited to) could manage a multi-tasking feat that the venerable Jedi Grand Master could not.

The closest we've come is some instances of Sith Lords lifting a target up with choking them with the Force, and there's been some very good arguments that such a thing is simply a Force Grip/Choke type of effect with the GM allowing the target to be raised in the air while being strangled. Most common instance is Dooku in RotS, but there's also Starkiller interrogating one of Kota's milita this way in The Force Unleashed, as well as a the head Nightsister Witch doing this to Han in Courtship of Princess Leia.

Perhaps not a full-blown upgrade is needed, but perhaps simply a clarification as to non-combat rounds, as well as making the Move basic power a "concentration effect" by default, so that if you spend your action on maintaining your telekinetic hold on the object, you don't have to re-roll each round. That would solve the issue of "can't maintain" while reflecting the vast majority of the Star Wars source material, movies & EU in the process. Naturally, using the attack upgrade would fall outside of using the basic power, and couldn't be maintained as you noted, very much the same way as how Move Object in Saga Edition was ended the moment you used it to attack.

Donovan Morningfire said:

-WJL

Again, more stuff from a separate thread, but applicable here:

Discipline is critical to the function of at least one force powers now, and probably will be important to others, as should vigilance (will be a different post). while there are talents that help the FE boost Vigilance, The only way for an FE to get Discipline as a career skill is to start as a Mechanic or Hired Gun, also spec into Mercenary Soldier or spec into Scholar/Politico and take the Well-Rounded talent.

So is it time to give the FE a set of specialization skills? How about Survival, Perception, Vigilance, Discipline, based on what their tree does. I'd replace the Insight talent with a "Clear your mind" talent (see old force feed back thread).

Just a thought…

-WJL

To resurrect an old idea from the prior Force Thread, based upon a suggestion put forth by LethalDose.

Since we see a lot of instances of Force-users, particularly the novice variety (which by default includes EotE Force-using PCs) spending several seconds concentrating, trying to "attune' themselves to the Force before attempting to activate a Force power/effect. Classic movie example is Luke in ESB, both on Hoth in the Wampa Cave and on Dagobah before trying (and failing) to lift his X-Wing out of the swamp.

LethalDose had suggested a maneuver to allow the Force-user to add an extra Force die to the roll, but that has the possible issue of backfiring simply by that die coming up with a DS point, leaving the Force-user with nothing to show for their time spent in concentration.

I've been mulling that notion over, and I think I have a workable solution that provides a viable boost, though it could certainly use a bit of polish.

New Action: Feel the Force
Once per scene, a character with a Force Rating of 1 or higher can spend an Action to make a Discipline check at a Hard Difficulty. If successful, the character is considered to have generated an additional 1 LS when activating a Force Power before the end of their next turn, as long as they generate at least one LS on their Force dice. If the character generates three Advantage or one Triumph on the Discipline roll, they are considered to have generated an extra LS when activating a Force Power, for a maximum benefit of 2 additional LS. The character suffers 1 Strain, regardless of the success or failure of the attempt.

Characters that use the rules found on page179 in the Dark Side Force Users sidebar to activate their Force powers instead roll Discipline against a Daunting difficulty, generating additional DS instead of LS.

I know the initial idea was to make it a Maneuver, but by making it an Action and only usable once per scene keeps Force-using PCs from being too eager to keep using this ability except for when they really need the boost. Granted, there's still the risk of getting nothing if you're only rolling one Force Die, but I might consider that if a character is willing to suffer the Strain hit and spend a Destiny Point to make use of a DS Force Point they'd still get the perks using the Feel the Force action… perhaps they suffer Strain not only for converting the DS Force Point, but an extra point of Strain for each LS point that using this action would provide?

Also, the dark side is described as the quick & easy path, but not being more powerful than the light, thus it being harder for a Dark Side Force-user to gain this sort of benefit, since at least going by George's remarks (mostly movie commentaries) that the dark side (particularly the Sith) are in imbalance in the Force, going against the Will of the Force and thus making it more difficult to "get in tune" with the Living Force.

It's not as powerful as adding extra Force Dice, but it does add a means of mitigating the current limit on a PC's Force Rating, at least giving them a shot at activating one or more of their purchased Upgrades, without the results being too swingy.

Donovan Morningfire said:

I definitely like the gist of it. It might be a tad wordy/rulesy, but I'd play it if it were adopted. But in spirit I definitely like the idea of being able to take extra time/concentration to give you better chances with Force powers. I'm not sure it belongs in combat for all Force users, though. Maybe this could require some higher-priced talent to use in combat?

usgrandprix said:

I thought about making it a talent, but that runs into the problem of "where to stick it on a talent tree and how much to make it cost?"

Also, it seems to be something all but the most unaware of novices are able to accomplish, so making it something any Force-user ultimately felt more appropriate than forcing them to buy it.

I agree that it's a bit wordy, but that could be addressed with some added polish. Perhaps just have it be 1 LS on a success and 1 additional LS per Triumph, leaving Advantages to be spent however the Force-user desires (such as giving set-back dice to the opponent of their upcoming Force usage?)

I thought about ditching the "minimum result of 1 LS," but I'm extremely leery about having any sort of ability (much less a free one) that ensures the automatic success of even the basic Force powers.

Like I said, it needs polish, but the core of the idea (making it a bit easier to activate Force Powers) is a good one.

Another option that I tried out during the couple of playtests I've had was to allow Forceusers to work up to the Requirements for a force skill.

So by spending 1 strain they can roll over a previous turns force roll into the next, allowing them to add strength, range, etc to the inital startup cost of a force power

e.g. Bob the Force User want to start up his Defensive Sense Power. To do this he need 2 force points. One for Sense and one for the modifier/talent. The first round he rolls 1 LS.. not enough, but enough to start the basic Sense power. In round 2 he decides to really concentrate then and spend a strain and adds round 1 total of 1LS to this rounds roll of 1LS.. This is enough to start the power, but he will need to keep spending 1 strain a round to keep it going as it is obviously a struggle to keep it going..

Sort of replicates Luke's effects with the XWing… He could move it a bit, but the strain was really showing, until he hits his strain threathold and it falls to the ground.

Not sure at higher levels how this may be broken, I havn't totally thought it through..

nobble said:

It's an interesting idea, though your example doesn't work as the Defense Upgrade for Sense is an Ongoing Effect, and doesn't require any FP to activate.

I'm guessing that doing this would cost the Force-user their action on each round they want to maintain the effect.

The one thing that feels problematic (to me at least) is that once a Force-user gets that initial LS point, it just becomes a matter of not exceeding your Strain Threshold. Also, what if the Force-user rolls more than 1 LS point on their Force dice? After all, most of the LS facings have 2 pips, so odds are decent that they'll have 2 LS to start with. Under this proposed change, would the character simply add 1 LS per round, or double the amount of LS generated on the initial roll? If it's a case of "double the initial result," then this could get very problematic very quickly, especially when it comes to Move, as a decent initial roll could allow a low-level PC to bust out several Upgrades on the second round (Strength plus two activations of Range).

I have noticed that a few basic abilities seem to be missed in the Force powers. I realize that they are Jedi-Related so they might be an issue in the Era that this game is set in, but I think it deserves a mention:

1. There seems to be no way to block blaster bolts as was one of the most basic abilities of the Jedi or most Lightsaber users for that matter. Is there a rule set or Talent tree that has yet to be published for this (Lightsaber combat would be my suggestion)?

2. I have not seen anything that allows for the jumps, acrobatic ability, speed or other movement capacities that made force-users both interesting and survivable. There are already armor modifications that aid speed, stealth and maneuverability that are not mirrored for force-users.

3. There is a type of Force-User called the Jensaarai that I found both interesting and playable, though rarely fleshed out fully in ANY edition of Star Wars. Any chance that these force-users will be mentioned, particularly since they were both existant and active in this era?

Again, I am fully aware that the Galactic Empire Era did not have an abundance of Force users, but since the storyline has always included force-users as part of what made the setting unique, it is a shame that there is not more representation of them here. Will this change at all?

dreddwulf1 said:

1. Blocking blaster bolts isn't a basic ability by any stretch. Minor TK, focusing on a task, and sensing basic life forces are basic abilities. If you want to know how to block blaster bolts (not redirect them) look no further than the Sense Force power. Upgrading ranged attacks sounds like blocking with your lightsaber, or knowing where not to be.

2. Page 177, specifically the Touch of Fate and Intense Focus talents. Remember, jumps/acrobatic ability are handled with an Athletics skill check, so both mentioned talents can increase your dice pool when making an athletics roll. As for speed upgrades, all characters move at the same speed, but an upgraded athletics skill check can make it easier to roll the two advantage symbols that let you take a free maneuver with your skill roll.

3. I wouldn't expect to see Jensaarai, Dathomiri Witches, or any other Force traditions until the Force and Destiny book and/or supplements show up.

-EF

EldritchFire said:

Deflecting Blaster Bolts: I can see where that is going, though it is one of the first abilities a lightsaber user seems to learn, and every one of them (Jedi, Sith or even some other force-users that happen to use it) seem to have it. I'd learn it early, but maybe that's more the way each are trained. I am curious as to how "Upgrading Ranged Attack" equates to blocking blaster bolts, but I can see where the sense power comes into play for the sake of where not to be or where the lightsaber needs to be to protect someone.

Jumps/Acrobatics: I'll take a look at those, thanks for the reference and Page Number.

Jensaarai: I wasn't expecting any really early answers, so that makes sense.

Again, thank you for the time and information. I appreciate your input and the speed at which you answered.

dreddwulf1 said:

For deflecting blaster bolts, it's nothing more than not getting hit by them, right? So increasing the difficulty to attack you sounds like it's as good a description as any. However, I'm sure there will be a lightsaber combat power down the line that gives deflection 2 when wielding a lightsaber, with perhaps the ability to throw the darn thing as part of it, since the current Move power doesn't really let you do that.

-CR

True enough on not getting hit, and it might be nice to keep it simple so that a character can use the sense ability to simply DODGE the darn bolts. Nobody seems to have checked that option yet.

As for lightsaber combat, I hope so. Call me Saber-lover, but I like 'em. Fugitive or otherwise, bringing a proverbial knife to a gun-fight and kicking butt with it is just plain fun!

Thank you, and may the force be with you (cliche, but still good).

How do you resist force powers? As it stands right now, the average beginner force user can just go up to any non-Hutt (or other race that has an outright immunity) and use Influence to make anyone do anything, no matter what the result on the Force Die (Dark side dots on the die only mean you take Strain for doing so.)

Not to mention in the skill section, it states that Discipline is important to Force Sensitives, and I just came across a small blurb in Vigilance stating that it matters too. However, there's no mention of the skills, or any skill for that matter in the Force section of the book. And none of the Weekly Updates mentions it.

Chris Brady said:

Actually, the Week 2 Update majorly changes the Force Powers.

Short version: The initial Control Upgrades for Move (attack a target) and Influence (mink trick) now require an opposed Discipline roll as well as a Force Rating roll, and you have to generate enough Force Points and successes in order to pull them off. To say nothing of needing additional Force Points if you want to use all those upgrades you've purchased.

Thus, Discipline becomes important for Force-users (better chance of activating Force Powers that target others) and Move and Influence aren't overly broken in the hands of a starting character.

dreddwulf1 said:

About 1: I could see a future sense upgrade, although more likely a talent tree - not power - (requiring sense and a couple of upgrades perhaps) that allows you to add setback dice to ranged attacks - akin to a defence bonus - where, if the attack is unsuccessful, the number of threats rolled (on the setback die/dice) are used as successes as an attack against the attacker, perhaps cancelled out by the amount of advantages he rolled - if net result is positive then wham, weapon damage to attacker. I can also see that this is initially limited to the short range band - further away required upgrades. Or simply, upgrading to challenge dice x amount of times, where Despairs are successful deflections and redirects the attack back to its origin.

About 3: I'd love to see something on them too, but for now you can "easily" enough create one using the gadgeteer (for their armour beardness) and exile-force sensitive talent tree, winging some sort of UCT rules.