… it's not really for now, but later.

I'd like to give it a go though, and see if anyone else has, or is willing, to give it a shot. It's been a central aspect of most of my d20 campaigns, I usually have one force user in the group (knowing or not), usually not Jedi, but untrained yahoos with a well developed paranoia… I like the paranoia element, even if its not a strict star wars ingredient. Anyhow I'm fond of the ability, I liked it in OCR and RCR, although not so much in SE.

Anyone got an idea?

Jegergryte said:

I'd say if you really have to have it now, make Farseeing a Control Upgrade on the Sense power tree, replacing one of the Row 4 or 5 Upgades under the "sense thoughts" side of the tree. This really shouldn't be something easy for a novice Force-user to learn, though if you want it available sooner, replace one of the Row 3 Upgrades with this particularly Control Upgrade instead,

As for how to use, the Force-user needs to make a Discipline roll, with Average Difficulty for current events, Hard for past events, and Daunting for future events, upgrading the difficulty by 1 if the target is a person or place that's unfamiliar to the Force-user. A basic success gives you a fuzzy, ill-defined vision of what you are trying to see, with added successes giving you a clearer picture. Not sure on how Advantages or Triumphs would be implemented, but perhaps they might give the Force-user a leg-up on their next check pertaining to what they tried to foresee, bearing in mind what Yoda said about the future always being in motion. Threat would be a representation of the character making the wrong assumptions based on what they saw, resulting in setback dice, while a Despair would cause the Force-user to see the wrong thing entirely.

I'd also suggest that the GM be the one to make this particularly Discipline roll if they're worried about the players trying to meta-game the results of their roll (an issue common with Perception checks; even if the PCs fail, they know that something's up and will tend to act accordingly).

It certainly needs some refinement, paticularly where Advantages, Triumphs, and Threats are concerned, but it's a starting point.

I understand the desire to make this into a power, but given the nature of the farseeing, it just works better as a story tool. This is how practically every game of star wars I've run or been in has handled the power anyway. The GM decides when a character has a vision, and what they see. I understand that some characters want to play prophets or seers, and make this type of power their focus, but that's definetely beyond what's supported in EotE, and and frequently a massive headache for the GM.

Moving forward, though, this would be an excellent place to use vigilance instead of discipline for make a force roll, especially in the cases when the vision may come unbidden. Vigilance is listed as being one of the important skills for force use. even though it's use hasn't been expounded in the book. Beyond that, yeah, make it a control upgrade to sense if you just gotta have it, activate it with vigilance too.

-WJL

Thanks for the feedback guys!

Right, so as a plot device, I'm certainly not against that notion, but I also want to let my players use it - for example the potential Gand findsman I'm dreaming of making or a player making (not gonna happen though…). I can see them using farseeing as a power for tracking prey… the odd force sensitive player might want it - one of my players is a bounty hunter type and force sensitive (I tried to prevent it…). She might want that potential available… Additionally there's the "disturbance in the force" use - using for example vigilance to discern details of some great (or small) disturbance in the force. Discipline would be used to further seek information in the force, intentionally.

As for discipline versus vigilance, I can see both as useful. Where discipline is used for meditation and "premeditated" attempts at looking into the future, past or present. Vigilance being sudden visions, touching items (similar to the psychometry (spl) of Quinlan Vos), getting a sense of the immediate area and divining meaning.

As for the type of information - I usually just write down an A4 page or so filled with vagueness and imagery that spawns paranoia and oddness in the players - I enjoy it and they do. I rarely, if ever, give them anything really useful - only enough to motivate, re-engage and scare the players… its generative of more material, widen plots and generally a technique I have relied on when players are loosing interest or something.

Jegergryte said:

Regarding Discipline vs. Vigilance, my vote is for Discipline, mainly for two reasons.

The first, and least important, is activating all the other Force Power effects that require a skill check base it off of Discipline. So sticking with Discipline keeps a sense of continuity with the other Force Powers.

The more important reason is that Farseeing has the feel of being less a "quick snapshot of a specific thing" but rather trying to sort through a myriad of other visions, possible futures, echoes of past events, and so on. That takes self-control to remain focused on the specific thing one is trying to scry and put aside the multitude of distractions.

As for Vigilance "being important to Jedi," we've already seen that the Beta book has instances of old and/or outdated text regarding Skills (determining difficulty for Combat skills anyone?), so the note on Vigilance could simply be another case of that, a holdover from a previous version of the rules regarding Force Powers that's no longer applicable, and it likely hasn't been addressed in the weekly updates as something to remove simply because it hasn't raised any significant amount of discussion the way the difficulty text for the combat skills did. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if this is one of the few mentions of that bit of text. Actually, Discipline was much the same as Vigilance in regards to Jedi/Force-users, at least until the Week 2 updated made it extremely important once again.

That's not to say Vigilance isn't completely unimportant to Jedi/Force-users, as the Force-Sensitive Exile has the Uncanny Reactions talent, which helps account for the "Jedi reflexes" and ability to sense danger before others would be aware of it. So having ranks in Vigilance in addition to Uncanny Reactions would go quite far in replicating how many Jedi across the EU are able to react so quickly to unexpected danger, sometimes even before their attackers have actually attacked. And those extra successes and Advantages/Triumphs generated on a Vigilance check could be put to some very good use, such as ensuring you or an ally is the first to act (something I've done in Cyril's Sunday Skype game) or to set yourself or an ally up with some boost dice, maybe even a bonus to your melee or ranged defense for the opening round if you roll well enough.

@Jegergryte: For what you doing (Gand findsman) I think making "farseeing" a control upgrade to the sense power would be most appropriate, and maybe give it double duty with psychometry, or make psychometry it's own control upgrade [whatever best fits your . It's a different way of using the power, but not so different it needs a separate power. In fact, I agree that it should be included (though probably as a supplement) in EotE material exactly because of the Findsman. In fact, the Force Exile with it's survival talents feels a lot like findsman already.

In previous systems, I think it's fair to say that farseeing and psychometry were both powers that allowed players to (consciously or unconsciously) enter a heightened state of awareness to ebb and flow of the force, where it leads.

In light of that definition, Vigilance is obviously the skill to use in these situations. Reading the opening of the skill's description:

"In uncertain times, individuals who are constantly prepared to face a variety of of challenges are far mopre likely to succeed than those who simply react to the ever-changing circumstance. This sort of preparedness requires mental discipline…"

Also in the next paragraph:

"Characters who must remain alert because of the nature of their lifestyles are often particularly vigilant".

Despite there being a separate skill named "Discipline", Vigilance's description explicitly states the skill covers, at least some, aspects of "mental discipline". This might be a point of interpretation, but it seems pretty obvious that the designers consider vigilance a mental preparedness ability/skill, especially in regards to alertness to changing situations. And if we insist on providing movie precedent on everything that is the force is in this game, then remember Yoda states:

"Always in motion, is the future."

So the skill that is stated to be used with the force, involves mental discipline, and allows a character to be sensitive to changing situations and the importance of these changes, e.g. the ebb and flow of the force, is the obvious choice to use for a Farseeing power.

Yeah, Discipline had the same verbiage as Vigilance and it made just as little sense then as it does with Vig now. But FFG obviously still had plans for it, just hadn't implemented them. Where Discipline makes sense to use with the influence and move force powers (Calm your mind to improve your control over the flow the force), it makes just as much sense to use Vigilance here (Calm your mind to be RECEPTIVE to the changes in the force).

Activating this power would be like an attack with the move power(the exact reason they implemented Discipline integrated with force powers): Roll force dice to activate and make a Vigilance check to evaluate the success of the vision. Difficulty should be based on how far in the future the vision occurs.

And if you don't like a nice logical path constructed with fact, then by all means, please ignore the **** out of the post.

-WJL

Right you two.

I see both of your points, and I for one see that a compromise of the two makes sense.

While we don't know how FFG will solve this issue in the future, I think that the intentional use of a farseeing would use the Discipline, of the above stated notion by Donovan. When trying to discern and makes sense of the overwhelming impressions one can receive from the force both skills makes sense.

Another reason for not going for (only) discipline is that it doesn't make it the catch-all force related skill. The only issue I see with using vigilance is that it also doubles as initiative skill…

Basically my conceptualisation for the use of both skill: When Yoda meditates on stuff in episode I to III (and V when double checking Luke's vision) I would think that discipline would makes the most sense - the intentional scrying into future, past and present events. Although Anakins visions of his mother would entail vigilance in my opinion. Same with Luke and his vision of Leia and Han on Cloud City - that would be vigilance - an onslaught of impressions from the force, not intentionally conjured or sought. When Quinlan Vos wakes up after loosing his memory and touching items and receiving impressions - vigilance to discern the meaning…

Therefore I think both are useful. I find both of your arguments convincing, I think both are useful just for those reasons, that you supply - its not keeping with the notion of "keeping it simple", but then neither am I - I like rolemaster, harp and such systems.

Perhaps vigilance is used until a certain force rating or level of the force power of level of discipline or whatever, at which point discipline becomes the prime skill or potential skill due to mastery of the force (or farseeing/sense), but that's just too much really.

Basically, when "farseeing a person" or object, looking for information about a specific thing, activate with discipline.

When opening yourself to the force in a more general manner, to receive input basically, use vigilance.

One player here suggested activating with vigilance, then discerning with discipline when one has "leads" to go one, to follow. I think two checks is on the border of too much, if not beyond, but I see the logic.

One could for example activate it by using two light side points (or whatever) and a vigilance check to search for clues, for example by focusing on an item from the individual one is tracking. When clues are in hand and impressions are interpreted (in some way or another) - a second activation could be made with discipline to find more information regarding more limited clues and queries… you see where I'm heading? I gotta go to bed.

Have a good one!

It's not in the book, and hasn't been errata'd in any way yet, so really you can do it however you want. even after the game is out, It's still up to you with GM fiat.

The more I read about Vigilance, and keeping in mind that the game not only gives players the ability to alter the environment for story purposes, but encourages them to contribute to the narrative, the more it looks like this skill works retroactively. more to post on the skills thread where it belongs.

-WJL

Jegergryte said:

I guess to add a third rationale for Discipline is that being a Force-user is already plenty expensive in terms of XP cost, and that it's quite possible for Discipline and Vigilance to be non-career skills for a Force-user depending on their starting career. I'm personally against stacking the deck even further against a Force-user for that reason. And as you said, Vigilance is already pretty useful for combat initiative.

Though if you did want to use both skills, you could use Vigilance for current, real-time events, and Discipline for past or future events, rather than making it dependent on Force Rating (which currently has a hard limit of two).

Ultimately, it's up to you and your group, so I might suggest checking in with them if you haven't already. They may come up with a convincing argument for one skill or the other.

Though as a third option, you could ignore the notion of making it a skill check at all, and just have the clarity of the vision determined by how may LS the character spends on the vision. One LS gets them a very brief and hazy snapshot ("My friends are in danger!") while additional LS adds further details to the vision. So for the example you listed for Luke seeing Han and Leia in danger on a city in the clouds, Luke's player might have spent two LS to get that initial vision.

Again, just a thought and another angle to consider.

Donovan Morningfire said:

Your first point though I don't think holds water. The Exile has a first tier talent (5XP) that makes perception and vigilance career skills. That's MUCH cheaper than buying another spec to make Vigilance. Also, there are two ranks of Uncanny Reactions for purchase in the Force Exile tree that add boost dice to all vigilance checks. If you don't think that is hot ****, please review this thread. Be warned, though: its full of "Alleged math".

In addition to the talents mentioned above, consider where you can get Discipline vs Vigilance as career skills:
Vigilance is a career skill from:

• Bounty Hunter
• Hired Gun
• Smuggler
• Thief

WHile Discipline is available from:
• Hired Gun
• Mechanic
• Mercenary soldier

As always, feel free to check my facts. But. honestly, It seems to me that Discipline is actually harder to get as a career skill than is Vigilance. I mean, yeah, its ANOTHER career skill to worry about, but it seems the deck is already stacked to help Force Exiles get Vigilance. It looks to me that Force Exiles, as it stands, are actually getting shafted already just needing Discipline, which is almost exclusive to the Hired Gun career. If you didn't start as a Hired gun for Force Exile, you better get Merc soldier if its so important to have Discipline as a career skill.

Seriously, as it stands, it seems Vigilance really should be taking some of the burden off of Discipline because of the exact reason you cited not to use it.

-WJL

LethalDose said:

And meanwhile, a Force-user already has to raise their Discipline, career skill or not, to make use of the existing Force Powers. And not every Force-user is going to choose their starting career and specialization based solely upon whether they get Discipline or not from their career. So instead of just having to raise one skill, you're suggesting that they should have to focus on raising two skills, which career skill or not is going to be an XP drain, leaving less XP to devote to boosting up their Force Powers or even purchasing talents.

At this point, the ball's in JegerGryte's court as to which of the various options presented he wants to use, if any. I've said my piece, and JegerGryte is free to use what elements of it he likes and discard those he doesn't. It is, after all, his game and his group, not mine and not yours.

At least you guys seem to agree on one thing, make it a sense upgrade -which seriously wasn't something I'd even considered, I was thinking of a whole new power, but see now that that would be "pointless" - all things considered.

As to which skill should activate the power, I still see a use for both, but I see the problem with that too - xp drainage and all. It seems to me that you guys won't agree upon which is best suited, which is fair really as both have good arguments for your positions. I think that past events might be best suited for discipline, while present might fit more for vigilance… as for future event, that is a tough one, because both could fit in my opinion.

Although the solution of just spending LS points might also make it more of a plot device and players might not so actively use it in the same way.

1 LS gets you the vague impressions (pain, danger, menace) for present, give nothing of future, as LS 2 for past;

2 LS gets sense of location or environment, perhaps even people and/or events going about, but still vague except such immediate things as danger, friends involved (names), pain and so forth for present and past, future as LS 1 for present.

3 LS is needed for unknown people, like a prey not known personally, but name, deeds done (cause for bounty for instance) and so forth, also items need this many LS to feed the force user with impressions (info gained from items as LS 2), future as LS 2.

4 LS gets you more definite answers about past and present events, but still vague of course, future events as LS 3 for past and present (same with items).

Of course, the future is always in motion as the saying goes, so even "definite" visions are not set in stone… as I said earlier, I usually used farseeing as a paranoia creating tool for large groups of players.

This way we can circumvent the skill use, I mean I would assume Anakin would have quite a bit in Vigilance and he couldn't make sense of the visions he received … you could put it down to roleplaying and stuff, but if he had 3 or 4 ranks in vigilance, and I wouldn't think that to be too high for someone like him in episode 3 at least, he still didn't know wtf he was doing and interpreted it in silly ways … he could of course botch the roll each time… but … by just using LS this way, one could arguably say that even if he had a force rating of 7 or 8 (he was the chosen one right?), rolling 7 or 8 force dice could still end up with few LS and tons of DS…

So, I'm reconsidering skill use - as I am really fond of skill uses for most stuff I must admit I'm now venturing into unknown terrain.

Using DS for this power, through strain conversion (or even the destiny point expenditure) could even colour the vision further into more desperate and dangerous ways… yes… I think I like this path. This way visions could also come to the player through the GM, he asks for a force roll and depending on LS/DS ratio - colours and tweaks the vision according to that… yes… HM… I think I like.

Ideas?

Jegergryte said:

Yes, much like you put forth, I can see this as a Control Upgrade for the Sense ability. Based my notes on starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Farsight .

Control Upgrade (5 xp)

The character gains the power to get vague impressions of events happening in other places or times.

1 FP = Allows a vision of another place.

2 FP = Allows a vision of events of the past.

3 FP = Allows a vision of a possible future.

You could have Strength Upgrade(s) and Range Upgrades to add to the ability.

Finally, you could have another Control Upgrade.

Control Upgrade (10 xp)

The character has the ability project his spirit for a limited period of time.

Ongoing Effect (3 Force dice): Insubstantial and invisible. Can not be affected nor affect the substantial world except through the use of Force abilities. Each round you must make a Discipline (Hard) check or return to your body.

Just off the top of my head.

mouthymerc,

It sounds like what your suggesting is rather than the single Control Upgrade for Sense that I suggested, your idea is to pretty much make the Farseeing effect be it's own branch off the Sense basic power.

That idea does have a lot of merit, as the Strength Upgrades would permit the Force-user to better refine their vision. Not 100% sure as to how Range upgrades would come into play; maybe they allow the Force-user to see a broader area around the target?

So perhaps something along these lines?

2nd Row, Columns 5 & 6 (cost would be 10 XP)
Control Upgrade: Character gains the power to get vague impressions of events happening in other places or times. These visions are based around a specific person, place, or object, and the user can only see what is within the Close Range band in relation to the target. LS costs would be as you listed, 1 for present, 2 for past, 3 for future.

3rd Row, Columns 5 & 6 (cost would be 10 XP)
Strength Upgrade: Spend LS to make the visions less vague, allowing the user to make out more details.

4th Row, Column 5 (10 XP)
Range Upgrade: Spend LS to expand range band one step when perceiving surroundings of target.

4th Row, Column 6 (10 XP)
Range Upgrade: Spend LS to expand range band one step when perceiving surroundings of target.

5tth Row, Columns 5 & 6 (cost would be 20 XP)
Control Upgrade: Ongoing Effect - umm, this one I'm not entirely sure should be available to low-level Force-users like the PCs are currently forced to be, since right now Force Rating 2 is the maximum cap (barring future additional Force Specializations).

Maybe instead of a Control Upgrade, add another Range Upgrade and a Strength Upgrade at 10 XP each?

As for the Range and Strength Upgrades, I figure they'd work along the same lines as the Week 2 updates to the various Move Upgrades, in that you only have to spend a single LS to make use of the purchased upgrades.

Donovan Morningfire said:

Yes that is what I meant when I put the idea forth. I realize now that may have not been clear.

Donovan Morningfire said:

I made it use 3 Force dice because I thought it should be used by someone more advanced. Someone with a Force Rating of 3 can just use the ability, while someone higher could also possibly use other powers. Not sure how much it even fits with Farsight in the first place, though, but it is an ability that some may want to work toward. Also I was looking at the fact that we will have higher Force Ratings down the road, if not right now. Something like that could be used to great effect by many ingenious players.

Donovan Morningfire said:

Increasing the viewing area and decreasing the FP cost were what I had in mind. Or maybe drop range and change it to Magnitude Upgrade where magnitude means you get more accurate information, at least in the first two.

As I said, it was just off the top of my head and I used the info on the wookieepedia site. Always room for improvement or suggestions.

Okay, cool that we're on the same page.

mouthymerc said:

Yeah, sounds like Range Upgrade should be Magnitude Upgrade if we're going with "more accurate info." If Strength Upgrade were to reduce the cost of activating the power, then I definitely think that it should only show up once, though perhaps put that one Upgrade in Row 4 and have it cost 20 XP. Might also need a caveat that it doesn't reduce the cost below a single LS point, even if trying to view present-time events. Otherwise, you run the risk of characters trying to spam Farseeing to short-circuit any mystery elements that an adventure might have.

If you're coming up with this many further upgrades (and I'm seeing a full range of them being proposed here: control, range, magnitude), you may want to consider making this a separate power, not even a branch of the sense tree, despite it's similarities. I think adding the upgrades makes the power become needlessly complicated. The power should be as vague or as specific as the GM needs it to be, not based on upgrades. This should remain a narrative ability that shows as much or as little as GM desires. The character should not even be given the option to impose any increased demands on what is seen. The restrictions on this ability must be fundamentally different than other skill and ability restrictions because of the nature of the power. This means any upgrades to this power/upgrade become really meaningless because of how frequently GM fiat would override them.

I think it makes the most sense to keep a simple set of rules for activation. I think what MouthyMerc offered was perfect: Different activation difficulties for different time frames. I would allow the skill check to direct what the character can learn. Using vigilance, a successful check indicates you are able to view the event you were aiming for, and follow the symbols and cues in the vision. Advantages can be used to discover useful bits of information, and Triumphs for major insight as to what happened/is happening/will happen.

This is similar to move's use: A successful force roll activates the power (Moves the object vs have a vision) and then the skill check allows the power to be effective (Strike the target vs see the event).

To keep things simple, allow psychometry to increase detail available or decrease the difficulty of the skill roll or Force power activation. Or decrease the cost and require the character has the object to attempt far seeing (More roleplaying than balance, though).

-WJL

Hey, my suggestion was just a single Control Upgrade to Sense and that was it, leaving it fairly nebulous (and thus in the GM's hands) as to what's seen.

If mouthymerc thinks that making a separate and distinct tree off the Sense power is the way to go that adds a bit more definition to what is and isn't seen, I say go for it. If nothing else, it's an interesting thought exercise.

Given the Upgrade Outlines I listed above based upon mouthymerc's notion (even with the proposed "spirit projection" upgrade), I don't see how this is overly complicated in comparison to the other Force Powers. And for all we know, FFG may do a similar tact with adding more Force abilities, simply doing more branches off one of the existing base powers, such as Force Grip/Choke/Crush being an extension off the Move basic power.

Donovan Morningfire said:

Yeah I most definitely see this as a Control Upgrade of the Sense tree rather than a separate ability tree altogether. The more I think about it, the only upgrade that really seems to fit is the Strength Upgrade. This ability is pretty much a GM fiat. It can be used to lead or help or red herring the characters. Other upgrades don't really add anything of value because of GM fiat. I think I would have Farsight as a 5 xp Control Upgrade, a couple of Strength Upgrades to reduce FP cost (minimum one of course), and the Spirit Projection Control Upgrade. An argument could be made for a Strength Upgrade to reduce the difficulty of remaining in spirit form. I wouldn't want to reduce the Force Dice ongoing cost, though, at least not without some major investment.