"Each opponent plays with the top card of his or her deck revealed."

So when your opponent draws one or more cards (e.g. the draw phase) do you get to see all the cards they draw, or just the one on top when they start drawing?

Cwethan said:

Since cards are drawn one at a time (FAQ 1.1), I'd say that after drawing any card, your opponent would have to reveal the new top card of his deck before moving on--regardless of whether the next thing that happens is that he draws another card or it's something else entirely.

Correct. No matter how briefly, each card drawn becomes the top card of the players deck. Therefore, it must be revealed.

A supplemental question:

If my opponent has Noyne out and I want to play a card effect that has the template: "Reveal the top card of your deck. Then do something."

If I have Noyne out and I want to play a card effect that has the template: "Reveal the top card of your opponents deck. Then do something."

If either me or the opponent has Noyne out and one of us has Satin in play, can we trigger his effect?

The effect tells us to reveal the top card of a deck that is already revealed. Is that considered failing to reveal the top card of the deck for the purposes of not being able to move on to the "then" portion of those types of effects?

regarding satin, part of me thinks you are correct, but another part of me thinks that it would fall into the cyvasse category where your opponent can kneel an already kneeling char and you can still move on to execute the THEN. But then again cyvasse says 'if able'.

I could make a fairly solid argument for either outcome. I'd suggest sending it to FFG to see which way they want to go.

However, if pressed, I would promote the following argument as the most applicable:

The FAQ entry on "the Hand" reads the following:

"Revealing your hand is not considered
revealing any of the individual cards in your
hand, and adding a card to a revealed hand is
not considered revealing that card.

Note that it is possible, through card effects,
to reveal individual cards from a hand that is
revealed in its entirety."

So, from that we know that the individual and the collective are different things.

Now, Noyne's effect appears to me to be constantly working on the deck as a whole - revealing the card that happens to be in the "top" position at any given time. Satin, on the other hand, works directly on the card that actually is on the top of the deck at the specific time when his effect is triggered.

Therefore, since Noyne is working on the deck and Satin is working on the card - and the FAQ tells us that it is possible to reveal an individual card that has already been revealed as part of the collective hand - it seems reasonable to say that revealing the individual card (with Satin) would still be considered successful, even though that card had already been revealed as part of the collective deck as a whole (with Noyne).

Meaning satin targets the card kinda in using reveal as a verb whereas noyne is just describing the state of the deck by using revealed as an adj.?

Well, other than the fact that Satin doesn't "target" anything, I suppose that's as good a way of looking at it as any.

But like I said, I'm making an assumption by using the "collective vs. individual" reasoning associated with the hand vs, cards in hand. It might not be the way FFG wants to interpret it. But I doubt Noyne works to shut down things like Satin, The Viper's Bannermen, or House Messenger.

A separate question that I have around Noyne is based on Rule 1.3 of the FAQ ("Whenever cards are revealed, they remain revealed until they arrive at their final destination"). What is the final destination for the card? If the final destination is not the top of the deck, can I name the revealed card any phase using Dragonstone Watchtower ( www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/GoTCards.html/_/secrets-of-oldtown/mask-of-the-archmaester/dragonstone-watchtower-mota )?

TyrVsGarm said:

1. Noyne is a continuous effect. As such, it does not have a "duration" so much as it is "always on." An FAQ entry entitled "Duration of 'reveal'" is not going to be particularly helpful.

2. If there is any applicability to the "duration of reveal" entry, it is that once the card stops being the top card of your deck, it is no longer "revealed." So drawing the card means it becomes "hidden" in the player's hand.

3. Since the continuous effect is "always on," the "if an opponent reveals" restriction on the Watchtower is not going to be satisfied. As far as the effect is concerned, the "reveal top card of deck" effect is only created once, and only one card has ever been revealed (even though it's identity changes as you draw cards).

So the only real interplay between Noyne and the Watchtower is that you have a better idea of what card to name since you know what they drew. But other than the moment you play Noyne, there is no interplay between the "reveal" part of the Watchtower and Noyne.

ktom said:

I understand your logic on #1/#3 if we assume that the definition of hand applies equally to the definition of draw deck. The card is never acted upon, so there is no duration to the reveal, because the card itself is not revealed, rather a portion of your draw deck is what is revealed. That effect does not seem to have a duration.

But it is your answer to #2 that I think may be the most correct. That the duration of the reveal is until such point as that card leaves the location "top of deck" (whether that be by draw or an effect that shuffles the deck). The reason that I think that this may be most correct is that I think the reveal effect applies to a card and not to the deck. I have come to this conclusion because of the Luwin/Glover question. There, we have a differentiation between the deck as a whole and a portion of the deck. The Noyne's effect applies only to the top card of the deck, therefore it cannot refer to the deck as a whole.

As such, I would offer that Dragonstone Watchtower would be able to name that card until it has moved to its final destination (which is either the player's hand or elsewhere in the deck). Similarly, Satin's response would be, in fact, switched off. However, Viper's Bannerman and House Messenger would not be be affected as they call for revealing a larger subset than already revealed.

TyrVsGarm said:

If Noyne were triggered instead of continuous, I'd agree with you. However, in order for Noyne to reveal each card individually as it becomes the top card of the deck, it would need to initiate separately each time a new card became the top card of the deck. That's not what it does. Ask yourself this - when would you cancel Noyne's effect as each card comes to the top of the deck (and becomes revealed)? There is no opportunity to cancel the "play with the top card revealed" effect, is there? And if you can't cancel it, there is no initiation. And if there is no initiation, it's pretty hard to say that the "player" has revealed that individual card, giving the Watchtower something to work off of.

So, since Noyne is continuous and therefore does not have a point of initiation, you aren't going to have anywhere in the timing structure to say that each card is actively revealed as it "rises" to the top of the deck. To work the way you are implying, Noyne would have to be passive. For example, it would need to say something like "when a card becomes the top card of an opponents deck, reveal that card until it is no longer the top card of that deck." At the very least, it would need to say "Reveal the top card of each opponent's deck," to specifically reveal the card, instead of "opponents play with the top card of their decks revealed," describing how the player himself/herself should be using his/her deck during play.

ktom said:

So if I setup Noyne, I can see all the cards my opponent draw when he completes his hand to 7 cards?

Bolzano said:

But if you Setup Noyne, you get to see your opponent's top card before playing pre-plot actions, or choosing first plots.

Thanks.

I'm sure this has already been figured out, but the fact that card text is not active during Setup results from FFG ruling or is it some hidden place in the rule book?

I couldn't find.

I only got this from the rules :

"All players draw cards until they have 7 cards in their hands once more. The game is now ready to begin."

The way I see it, since Round 1 hasn't started, there is nothing that you can activate or trigger until it has. Otherwise, "draw up to 7 cards in your hand" would count against your draw cap in Round 1.

Bolzano said:

"Note: Cards are considered neither “played”
nor “put into play” when revealed during setup.
Thus, any card effect that triggers after being
played from your hand or when “put into play”
will not trigger when revealed during setup."

That has been extended by players - and ruled by FFG - to go beyond "play/comes into play" and stands for the premise that no card text is active until the beginning of the first round/phase, initiated (as specifically stated) or otherwise (not specifically stated).

It's another one of those "rules stated in terms of a specific circumstance can be applied generally" - kind of like the way we generally apply all of the rules on costs, play restrictions, target requirements, and effects specifically spelled out in the FAQ for events and character abilities to attachment, location, plot, and agenda effects as well.

Thanks.

They should indicate his in the FAQ, I think, because there are more and more players but few keep tracks of old rulings.