Did Dezmond just have two posts without mentioning how cool Space Marines are?

Congrats Dez!

To jump back and agree with the OP, I love what Fantasy Flight are doing with Dark Heresy and looking forward to Rogue Trader with great anticipation! Sure, there are flaws and quirks to the rules system as well as the gaming universe, to be honest, but IMHO there aren't many games out there where the subject has been approached with the same skill,enthusiasm and respect for the source material that FFG have put into DH, effortlessly (or so it seems) continuing a game I've wanted to play for decades. My fav rules are often fast, easily handled with some crunch to them, but more importantly "built" for tweaking and actual roleplay. I've harboured misgivings about WHFRP since its first incarnation, way back, but somehow DH does the same thing, but slightly better, and suddenly it all comes together. I can do pretty much what I want with the published material, which continues to inspire me. The books are so crammed with juicy stuff I don't bother to read them all at once, saving bits for later, when I need a fresh injection of ideas.

Boy, that sure came off as total fanboy adoration. Well, I'm not sure I am one. But hell yes, I'm completely sold on DH.

Thanks, guys! Rogue Trader will be a blast.

Xenos PCs... Later... after Deathwatch, I think... a grand campaign that unites the Imperium, the Tau and the Eldar in a desperate struggle against the forces of the Great Enemy or perhaps the Tyranids or Necrons. (Or as DH has taught us, new foes...)

Players can be any of the previous products career paths (DH Acolytes, RT Explorers and DW Marines) plus new ones designed specifically for each xenos race. Yes, this flies in the face of a lot of fluff, but players are screaming for it. I say FFG should let us have it.

The character interaction would be amazing. The bickering over tactica between the Space Marine and the Dire Avenger as they scout the enemy positions, the Hrud trying to out-scum the Scum while the Tau Medic complains that she can't find a human heart beat while trying to save the Arch-militant's life... it would be the stuff of legends.

I know that this looks a lot like some kind of fanboy raving, because that what it is. I'm a fanboy, and I'm raving.

The whole line would consist of 2 books. One for players with all the career path and gear, and one for GMs with the actual bad guys and the timeline of the campaign. When it was all over, the PCs would all be grudging friends, but still enemies because of racial tensions in the galaxy. With the big threat destroyed, the galaxy goes back to mutual destruction.

It's like Enemy Mine , but on a grander scale.

Jephkay said:

Great movie! And yes, great comparison.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Can't say I look forward to Deathwatch at all. An RPG where the only thing you can play is a power armoured superman whose only purose in life is killing things? No thank you. We get enough dice rolling with the combat happening in Dark Heresy already, and if you're going to have whole campaigns that only concerns warring Space Marines then the game won't consist of much else than dice rolling and looking at stats.

Space Marines are great as NPC's though. They can be extremely scary opponents or they can be much needed back-up for normal human PC's. They are so inhuman in thought and action which makes them mysterious and interesting. But as player characters? I can only see ridiculous power wanking in that scenario.

Hopefully FFG will realize this and concentrate their efforts in releasing loads of source materials and adventures for Rouge Trader and Dark Heresy, instead of doing a Space Marine RPG.

Space Marines already have games that cater to them: table-top battle games and board games. They wouldn't fill any function what so ever in an RPG. I mean the Adepta Sororitas can BARELY provide interesting roleplaying possibilities in Dark Heresy in spite of being so restricted in thought and character. A space marine would provide nothing. All they do is kill things and feel happy about killing things. They are too simple minded to be interesting. Like the "human" variant of Orks. Why would anyone (besides people obsessed with dice rolling) want to play an Ork campaign, where all you do is fight, fight and fight? The same thing would be true for Space Marine campaigns. Fighting, fighting and more fighting...

Varnias Tybalt said:

I disagree. I think Space Marines would be full of RP opportunities. SM are more then just killers. Read some SM novels and comics. And besides, its all based on the chapter of the marines.

They are already divided into "classes" with Scout Marines, Tactical Marines, TechMarines, Chaplains, Apothecaries, Librarians, Officers, Pilots and so forth. They have a natural built in Enemy with Chaos Space Marines. Some of them, like the Ultramarines, actually have cultures of art, history, music, literature, government and inheritn reponsibility to a given world.

While the mass purpose of space marines is combat, expansion, crusade and conquest, its also to protect, lead, inspire and provide hope. In Deathwatch they will be taking on a inquisitorial role. To seek out and destroy the xenos, solve the chaos plagues and investigate heresy.

Truth be told, I will still prefer Dark Heresy (which I also prefer over Rogue Trader) but Im looking forward to Deathwatch just to see another aspect of the 40K universe.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Since when did Deathwatch marines ever conduct investigations? From what I can see from every relevant fluff text about them they seem to function as Ordo Xenos' hired thugs for use in combat and not much else. Investigation is for Inquisitors and their acolytes and not something left for power armoured supermen to do.

By the way I have read several novels and comics about space marines (would two thirds of the Horus Heresy series be sufficient?). The Space Marines dont have much in the way of personality or individuality, rather than playing by different macho stereotypes. Space Marines are not much in the way of "roles" but are rather portrayed as "role models" of the Imperium.

I can picture very clearly how a Space Marine campaign would look like and the only thing I can see is ridiculous amounts of dice rolling because combat will happen a lot more frequently, and then toss in some macho plattitudes in between for good measure. Perhaps one or two of the marines will be swayed to Chaos but that isnt such a strange thing since most marines are pretty small minded any way (meaning that either they are stubbornly blind in their hatred of Chaos or they are ridiculously easily swayed to it). Basically too much extremes and very little middleground in the mind of an Astartes, but then again what can you expect from someone who's sole purpose in life is war, and war alone?

If Deathwatch follows the previous standard set by DH and supposedly RT, it will be about starting at the bottom of your tier and working your way up. I can also see FFG taking it to a new level of play and having several of the chapters available being unique creations for the Calixis Sector, the Koronus Expanse, The Halo Stars and the Ghoul Stars.

Bearing that in mind, I can see them having the game start as Scouts/Neophytes/Initiates and so forth and growing from there. PCs will be much in the vein of Brettonian Knights Errant, or Trollslayers or Questing Knights, having to achieve certain goals and standards for becoming full fledge marines or gaining the right to be in the Deathwatch.

But overall, I am not prepared to dismiss Deathwatch completely.

If I was to do that I would also dismiss RT and want FFG to focus solely on DH.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Sure they might start out as Scouts/Neophytes/Initiates, but the fieldwork they are intended to do is still very narrow in my opinion. They're still "soldiers" in a sense and as such are expected to conduct their work on the battlefront somehow (whether the "battlefront" is a 'stealer infested space hulk recently discovered by Ordo Xenos agents or an Ork invaded world). It would be like playing Dark Heresy, but the players are restricted to play Guardsmen only, and instead of having an Inquisitor as their commander they would have a superior officer.

To describe it very simplistic, Deathwatch seems to carry a "soldiers only" overtone, while Dark Heresy carries more of a "secret agents" overtone. One setting is to me very narrow and small, while the other holds promises of a much more varied situations. And most importantly, one of them functions very well as an RPG, while the other seem to function better as perhaps a boardgame, table-top battlegame or even a video-game.

Still im not dismissing Deathwatch completely either, but if you break down the concept of what Deathwatch seems to be then it certainly do not look very promising at all. A sourcebook for Dark Heresy or Rogue Trader that describes Space Marine stats, weaponry and such would be fine and very useful, and it could perhaps include some rules for creating an Astartes PC with a relevant career tree (sort of like Adepta Sororitas got in Inquisitors Handbook). A whole new role playing game devoted to Space Marines only on the other hand, just seems like a waste of time and resources to me.

About Rogue Trader, that is a different story altogether. Although im still a little perplexed as to what it is that Rogue Trader will give that you can't already do in Dark Heresy, I realize that the setting is very different from DH and it will most certainly provide ample of role-playing opportunities in a way that DH might not be able to (contact with the unknown and alien on a grander scale that only the most radical of Inquisitors would permit their acolytes to indulge in). Which explains why im more optimistic towards RT than Deathwatch.

However I do agree with you in one way and that is that FFG should focus on their respective RPG's. It's a little sad when a company only release a few sourcebooks and one adventure campaign and then simply "retire" the whole product line. Look at games like Call of Cthulhu for instance that have had releases all the way back since the 80:s, with countless published scenarios and extremely complex campaigns. I would like to see stuff like that for Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader as well. Especially DH needs a bigass and complex campaign, with confusing amounts of political intrigues that entails the player characters to take sides with Inquisitorial factions and travel between several different worlds in their investigations. A campaign that really shows how HUGE the Imperium and the ruling of it can be. To be honest I'd rather see something like that released than Deathwatch...

I think that is exactly where the meta plot of Dark Heresy is headed to.

Son far Haarlock is central to two adventures (The House of Ash and Dust in Disciples of the Dark Gods and Tattered Fates) with two more installments coming this year. I think the Haarlock legacy with culminate, with amongst other things, the Acolytes getting the Haarlock rogue trader writ and the storyline will continue in the Rogue Trader adventure series which will ultimately lead into deathwatch.

As far as settings for the 40K RPG go, Id rather see an actual Guard setting or a true Necromunda RPG, but I beleive all of these can more or less already be done and at most only require a single 250 page or so sourcebook to cover.

But it is not best to despair at the now, and instead to wait to see what will happen in the then.

Three years from now, when the licese folds or something, then we can say "you know, FFG should have done..."

Me, Im waiting for Xenos: Aliens of the Imperium. With the triumphant return of the squats.

Afterall, the Tyrant Star is nothing more then a Squat Homeworld.

Well,

Now with the Explorator profile we can safely say that a level 1 RT is the equivilant of a level 3 Acolyte, would this mean that a level 1 Adaptus Astartes is the equivilant of a rank 3 RT, thus a Rank 5 Acolyte????

Barl said:

As someone who bought the original Rogue Trader back in '87 (only to have half the pages fall out three days later...) I've been waiting for a awhile for a 40K RPG and I can say that me and my regular gaming group are extremely pleased, both with the game mechanics and the presentation of the line! Kudos to BI and then FFG for grabbing a great license! (I still can't believe DH was nearly strangeled in its cradle the day after its sell-out release...sheesh). We are looking forward to both RT and DW!

I have to say that I'm very impressed with everything I've seen in the WH40KRP game so far. My friend and I are very much looking forward to RT as well as DW. As far as a Necromunda game goes, I'd like to see some sourcebooks detailing the little bits of the WH40K universe, such as Underhive gangs and the like.

Santiago said:

As much as it may make me wince from a balance perspective, you're probably right.

That being said, I am also impressed with the Dark Heresy materials that have passed through my hands. Particularly with how extensive the character generation system is by covering nearly every possible class a player could want to have in that subsetting. I have yet to see a gap that couldn't be easily filled with the given classes and so far it looks like Rogue Trader's going to end up the same way (barring the possiblity of one class that might have to be squeezed into a player's supplement.)

I rather hope we don't see xenos PCs, or at least that lots of thought will go into them if we do. FFG have done very well to enhance the feeling of the Dark Millenium thus far - seeing xenos and humans interacting regularly as squad buddies would just be horrible. This isn't Star Wars, after all.

Tullio said:

I totally agree. While there are some few exceptions of course, like Inquisitors belonging to the Xeno Hybris faction described in Disciples of the Dark Gods, who are rumored to employ a few xenos as acolytes and/or contacts. But these are very rare, and should in my opinion stay rare. Like you said, this isn't Star Wars...

The way FFG could do it is to state xeno's aren't PC's (except with ultra radical inquisitors, akin to binding daemons and using sorcery) but to do an antagonist book deatailing a xenos race in the area (such as the Eldar who travel through the Clixis sector and [presumably] the Komonus Expanse), with careers, stats and the background, leaving it up to GMs to do a simple conversion if they wish.