Whoops, you're quite correct. I forgot about the 3 Koiogran turn the TIEs can do.
circle fight question
Parakitor said:
Tawnos said:
It's worth mentioning that all ships have the same number of maneuvers due to the design of the dials.
Funny. I could have sworn that the TIE fighter had 16 options, while the X-wing and TIE Advanced had 15 options. Can anybody verify?
Parakitor said:
Tawnos said:
It's worth mentioning that all ships have the same number of maneuvers due to the design of the dials.
Funny. I could have sworn that the TIE fighter had 16 options, while the X-wing and TIE Advanced had 15 options. Can anybody verify?
They do. At the 1 speed, TIEs can do sharp turns only, while X-Wings can do banks and straight. They both share the entire gamut of 2 speed turns and straight, though at different colors. So X-Wings have 1 more maneuver at 2 speed or under.
But then we move on to 3 speed, and while the TIE can match the X-Wing maneuver for maneuver, it gains an extra maneuver with the 3 Koigran. Both ships share a 4 straight and 4 Koigran, so at this point, the TIE and X-Wing both have 15 maneuvers accounted for… and then the TIE Fighter gets a 5 straight on top of that.
Daveydavedave said:
Tawnos: there is a 180 degree turn… the immelman aka koiogran
I agree that turning to "catch" your opponent is kinda silly. Both players can chase all day long, or the rebel player can get smart and just move away at full speed. It's almost always better for an X-Wing to take a movement round or 2 to get distance and then close again on the tie. Distance creates a situation where barrel rolls are largely useless and the tie has no hope of getting behind the x-wing. Meanwhile the x-wing has time to lock and focus. Then the best the tie can hope for is a head on fire fight (assuming a 1v1 fight with no asteroids etc).
Daveydavedave said:
Tawnos: there is a 180 degree turn… the immelman aka koiogran
I know. I meant that I could see them adding a 180 degree ARC turn template.
Anyone who's played using the full rules will tell you that TIEs are more maneuverable than the Rebel ships.
The game doesn't have to simulate circle flow dogfighting because we never see circle flow dogfights in the movies.
And that sort of dogfighting is boring. I don't see the fun in doing nothing but circles for several turns until a few-degree difference in turning radius puts one ship or the other in a firing position.
DagobahDave said:
Anyone who's played using the full rules will tell you that TIEs are more maneuverable than the Rebel ships.
See, this is very subjective and situational. Yes, TIEs have a higher top speed and, in general, can make sharper turns. This doesn't make them more maneuverable than X-wings. It's very easy to make a TIE overshoot its target by flying slow, as they can't make a straight 1. And I can't tell you how many times I've desperately wished I could perform a soft 1 bank in a TIE.
Maneuverability is incredibly situational, and I don't see the TIEs as necessarily have a general advantage in that regard.
R2D2 said:
Id love to see diagrams or pictures of how this works! or a step by step instruction. I will have to try it at home tonight!
thanks! though. the force truly is strong with you!
That's what I was trying to communicate as well. Having never got into that situation, I was trying to doodle it out on paper, but I came to the conclusion that just doing a tight circle of 90 degree 1 turns would put you in a firing position to get the X-Wing. It's hard to explain without some serious visuals.
Also, if you were playing with the basic rules, wouldn't the Target Lock not be allowed? Maybe that's why you had a tough time of it, worrying about breaking off. From what I gather with the basic rules, you just move and shoot; no actions, no upgrade cards, no stress tokens.
I was thinking about this all morning and I kept thinking the 1 Turn would compaired to the 2 turn, especially when you calculate the bases into the equation that eventually the Tie would get behind the X-wing. So I just tried out several scenarios and no luck. Logically the Tie and the Xwing end back in the starting positions with no gain.
However, with just a little strategy, the Tie can come out ahead. After two tight turns, the tie can simple roll towards the X-wing. On the third move the Tie performs a K-Turn and if the Xwing continues in the circle, the Tie has a line of sight and may even be in range for a shot (depending on original distance). The next turn with 45 degree 2-turn you will likely have another shot lined up….although the xwing may also have a bead on you now.
this all changes when you take out the 1 on 1 situation. Since you can generally get 2 TIEs for each X wing, one TIE can be setting up the X wing for the right shot (by making the rebel best choice be gradual turns) while the second TIE is doing 90 degree turns to get behind the X wing.
Dark Curse would be very good for this kind of bait ship. Keep giving him evade and let the X wing chase him. Other TIEs move in for the kill.
Something I think nobody really touched on here, is that, at a glance, a TIE Fighter is just at a disadvantage with a straight up one-on-one fight with an X-Wing, so I can see why someone would be reluctant to try and take the X-Wing head on, because (assuming both ships were at full hull/shield points), the TIE is more likely to be crippled/vaporized if they exchanged laser fire at Range 1, where you would likely end up if you were both moving around in close quarters.
Having said that, if this is what the match came down to, 1 on 1 like that, and you're statistically going to end up dead, you might as well go all in and pray to the dice gods that the X-Wing rolls poorly for its attacks. Either way, the match will be over and you can go back to playing a new game.
Looking at even the basic version of each craft;
Rookie Pilot X-Wing, 21pts
-option to take Proton Torpedos and a Astromech
Academy Pilot TIE Fighter 12pts
-no upgrade options
The TIE is always going to be outclassed on paper. Even the more "Veteran" unique ships of both types are like this; at best you can get a Elite talent card for the TIE, but so can the X-Wing, and take the same ones, so effectively it cancels that option out, plus the X-Wing could still take a Proton Torpedo or an R2 unit.
If you're honestly just down to that one-on-one scenario, playing conservative will likely end in a loss for you, as the X-Wing can just pump out more shots, and you can't afford to play damage attrition that way if that's all you have left.
Tawnos said:
X-wing vs. TIE, assuming both are unharmed, is a clear disadvantage for the TIE. At that point, you're really banking on the dice gods smiling upon you. Even if you could slip in behind the X-wing, chances are very good that you're going to wind up head-to-head sooner rather than later, unless the X-wing player has an irrational fear of Koiogran turns.
cleardave said:
Something I think nobody really touched on here, is that, at a glance, a TIE Fighter is just at a disadvantage with a straight up one-on-one fight with an X-Wing, so I can see why someone would be reluctant to try and take the X-Wing head on
…..
Having said that, if this is what the match came down to, 1 on 1 like that, and you're statistically going to end up dead, you might as well go all in and pray to the dice gods that the X-Wing rolls poorly for its attacks.
Who hasn't touched on what now?
Ive actually found a decent way out of this situation now for both parties.
I played around with the models a bit last night, attempting to put myself in both player's position and choose what (were I unaware of the other player's move) would be the most logical options.
The trick to getting a tie out of this situation on top seems to be using the soft banking turn. A soft 3 instead of a hard 3 puts you at more of an elipse shape, which then allows the tie to do a 4 speed k turn (whilst always staying just outside of the x-wings firing arc) push back toward the x-wing on the next turn (with a soft 3 again or a straight on) and either (I tried almost every combination i could think of) end up behind the x-wing in the circle again, at a decent diagonal outside of the x-wings arc or even side on.
From all my testing I actually couldnt find a way which the X-wing could counter this once you begin. Every possible move from the X-wing worked out with the tie in a more favourable position and able to whip round and start gunning within a turn or two!
For the X-wing it was considerably harder, but I was able to generally force it into a head on position. This relies more heavily on the Tie trying to stay out of the x-wings arc, but seemed to be at most times the more logical choice.
I therefore rescind my complaint! I think I will put it down to a combination of first game mistakes and my girlfriend pretty much doing the obvious moves repeatedly.
In short, it seems that (if played right) the first player to break the circle in the right way comes out on top. I suppose the fact that this seemed far easier for the Tie does, in fact, show their increased manouvreability. In the future I will gametest myself before complaining!
R2D2 said:
In short, it seems that (if played right) the first player to break the circle in the right way comes out on top. I suppose the fact that this seemed far easier for the Tie does, in fact, show their increased manouvreability. In the future I will gametest myself before complaining!
Even better, that's really the desired outcome of a situation like that. I'm glad you found things that worked out.
"(
trying to give my girlfriend an easy time as she doesnt like this kind of game and only offered to play because i was so excited
about finally getting the pieces…shes the best!)"
"p.s I won in the end, but only due to a few lucky shots at range 3 which took down her shields, then a turn where we were both facing at range 1 and I won purely because i got a lucky roll and got to attack before her…"
The biggest mistake here…
some images…
Starting Positions
1 & 3, still opposite facings
Terminal Issue with doing the same thing and expecting a different result
Even doing a 2 vs 3 hard bank, you still end up with opposite facings
Barrel roll… not much help, same result of opposite facings
K-Turn. Assuming the X-Wing continues her trend, the Tie can at least take a shot and maybe spook her into turning right, or any of a dozen (or more) possibilities, good and bad. But the circle is broken…
Lots of ideas here, but no pictures. Thought I'd help. =)
Sorry, Thought I should probably organize my Pics. So I moved 'em and updated. Wish I could delete my previous post…
~Aiden
some images…
Starting Positions
1 & 3, still opposite facings
Terminal Issue with doing the same thing and expecting a different result
Even doing a 2 vs 3 hard bank, you still end up with opposite facings
Barrel roll… not much help, same result of opposite facings
K-Turn. Assuming the X-Wing continues her trend, the Tie can at least take a shot and maybe spook her into turning right, or any of a dozen (or more) possibilities, good and bad. But the circle is broken…
Lots of ideas here, but no pictures. Thought I'd help. =)