Following situation occured in a previous game:

Stark is playing a Wildling deck and has the White Raven: ( Immune to non-Raven cards.
Attach White Raven to your House card and discard all other Raven attachments from play. It is Winter. Each player takes 1 less gold token when he or she counts income ) attached.

Due to a series of incidents he has no locations nor characters in play. Only the Raven is still in play.

I played At the Palace of Sorrows: When revealed, each player chooses a card in play which he or she controls and puts the chosen card on top of its owner's deck. Then, if this is your revealed plot card, trigger the "when revealed" effect of the top River plot card in your used pile.

Does my Plot card effect his Raven or is the Raven immune due to "Immune to non-Raven cards". In my oppinion as the Raven is not targeted directly he should not be immune but i ain't sure about it.

Enlighten me please

MrFixit said:

Anyway, immunity is a lot more than "cannot be targeted." It is also "ignores all effects." So even if the plot could target the Raven (it can't), the Raven would ignore the actual effects.

So, the fact that the only card your opponent has is immune pretty much nerfs your entire plot here. See, since there cannot be a card chosen for each player, the "choose and return" part of the plot never initiates. (So no one loses a card.) And since that part didn't resolve successfully, the "then" part also doesn't initiate - and you don't get to repeat the last River plot, either.

Wait, that means Marched to the Wall is useless if any player doesn't have a targetable character… We've been playing it very wrong for a long time, then. It makes perfect sense, but somehow, we managed to get it wrong.

Yup. Without the words "if able," you cannot make Marched one-sided by not having a character of your own to discard.

Khudzlin said:

Totally. We should see to it that this gets around. There's a lot of players who use Marched to the Wall in their KotHH decks.

Now i am kind of confused - what else would be an example of a card with an immunity that is not targeted directly.

I mean the plot doesn't specify that an attachment has to be discarded nor any other specifics of the card.

What would prevent my friend to always choose his raven to fizzle my plot?

MrFixit said:

Just as one cannot choose a Cannot Be Killed character for claim, one cannot choose an immune card for the effect of the plot. IOW, if he has another (non-immune) card in play, he must choose that one.

It only works out that the plot fizzles in the scenario described in the OP because the opponent has no non-immune cards in play.

MrFixit said:

That would be the FAQ (page 9, §3.15):

A card cannot be chosen as a target of effects to which it is immune.

Ratatoskr said:

Huh. Well this raises other questions for me re: Threat from the East, which I thought I understood post-errata. Does this mean that if a Bara player with TLS plays TftE and chooses discard then draw, the card does nothing at all because since the Bara player can't discard, neither can? Similarly, if player A plays TftE and chooses draw then discard, but player B has already drawn one card pre-plot, TftE fails entirely and nothing happens because since B can't draw 3 cards, meaning nobody can? Sorry if this has been answered already, but I thought I had it down before right now . . .

Vaapad said:

TftE doesn't come into this at all, so don't worry, you're fine.

What we're talking about here is effects that make you choose a target. TftE doesn't do that, it makes you choose between two options, which one of two passive effects will go off. Targets are always cards.

With TftE you choose one of the offered options, no matter if they resolve sucessfully or not. Just remember that the post-Then part of the effect can't resolve if the pre-Then part wasn't resolved fully. Since the latest FAQ update, this requirement is checked for each player individually.

MrFixit said:

1. The immune card cannot be chosen as the target for X.
2. The immune card ignores all effects that would be applied to it by X.

So, for example, say that I have a non-unique character that is "immune to events." You want to take control of it with Seductive Promise, an event which tells you to choose one of my characters. You are not allowed to choose it as the target for Seductive Promise, so you cannot take control of it. #1 above blocks it.

So instead you try to get rid of the character - along with all other characters - by playing Westeros Bleeds (which discards all characters in play without choosing any of them as targets). Since Westeros Bleeds doesn't choose any targets, #1 doesn't block it. So does my "immune to events" character get discarded? No. Because it is blocked - for my character only - by #2 above.

My "immune to events" character ignores any event, good or bad, that tries to do something to it - whether that event chooses it as a target or not.

MrFixit said:

So is there any other way to get rid of the raven except for playing a raven card?

Give the Tin Link the "Raven" trait by triggering the Copper Link first. Then you have a "raven" card that can get rid of attachments. Or use carrion birds and win MIL challenge with them.

There's also Ill Tidings, it has the raven trait.

Does House Umber berserkers have any effect if one player cannot choose a character?

When House Umber Berserkers comes into play, each player must choose a character he or she controls. Kill each chosen character.

Giving Jorah's Cohorts the Raven trait (with Hall of Dragons , for example) would work as well, right?

Khudzlin said:

It would be better if House Umber Berserkers said for each player to choose a character they control "if able." But the instruction that players must choose a character, combined with the text to "kill each chosen character," has always been read to allow for not all players having a character available to kill.

I have sent the question to FFG:

If I reveal the plot "Marched to the Wall" while only my opponent has a character in play, do they have to discard one?
Relevant text: When revealed, each player chooses and discards 1 of his or her characters from play (cannot be saved).
If I play House Umber Berserkers while one player has no characters, do the others have to kill one of theirs?
Relevant text: When House Umber Berserkers comes into play,each player must choose a character he or she controls. Kill each chosen character.

Here's Damon Stone's answer:

Both cards create an effect on each player that they must resolve to the best of his or her ability.

Khudzlin said:

That, or course, begs the question why the words "if able" are needed on plots like "On Dagger Lake" and "Called to Court," since Damon just said that with such passive effects, each player who can do X, must do X.

Anyway, this would mean that my above description of "At the Palace of Sorrows" was incorrect. If only one player can return a card to the top of the deck, that player must do so. You would lose the "then" part, though, because the " each player" part was unsuccessful.

ktom said:

So I gather.

ktom said:

Dr.Cornelius said:

The difference you mention is the word "then."

In a passive effect, anything before the word "then" will initiate regardless of targets, etc. Anything after the word "then" requires everything before the word "then" to resolve successfully. So while "when revealed, each player chooses and…" will always initiate (requiring everyone to do as much as they can), unless every player is able to do so, it will not resolve successfully - (despite initiating successfully). If it doesn't resolve successfully, the part after the word "then" will not initiate at all.

So you are effectively asking me to make a list of all plots with the word "then" for you.

ktom said:

we're guna need that by the end of the day /lumberg

Sorry. I've got a meeting with the Bobs.

I hear you've been missing work lately.