Ok, next door (http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=149&efcid=46&efidt=719238) there has already been some discussion about the Edge of the Empire Beginner Game and how the concept of an easy entry point to the game might be transfered to WFRP. There are some beginner boxes out there (for DnD or Pathfinder, for example). Could that work for WFRP, 3e? Should it be done, and if yes, how? Or is it too late? I noticed that Paizo has put up a free "transition" PDF for its Beginner Box. It's intended to ease the step between the rules-light B-Box and the 500+pages core rules - and it even tells the GM how to adapt adventures modules so they can use them with the rules-light version. And it demonstrates this with a free adventure… Bravo! That's really neat.

I'd like to see something similar for WFRP3.

So, what do think should be included in the box, what might be left out - and how can the transition to the full (and expensive) rules be softened?

I am really glad you put this up Arsi. In my humble opinion I STILL can NOT figure a reason why FFG would NOT do this. Whatever the numbers crunch out to be, it would, at the VERY least, sell as well as any other officially released campaign box set. Existing players would purchase for the campaign, the new careers, the dice and the new "materials", while the potential players who know nothing or VERY little would have a very defined "entry point" ( just look at the recent thread titled "entry point". If this doesn't prove the point that one is needed, nothing does.), and a beginner box might just get those that DID look at WFRP3 a few years ago, but decided against it due to the major fumble by FFG to take a second look.

I would like to ask this general forum group again,. Please tell me where this could be a bad idea. I am open minded and can be easily swayed if a good argument is presented. As it stands, I can't see any negatives,.. It should be the NEXT release after TEW.

P.S.

Some other items (product) that I believe has the potential to sell well:

1. More POD's

2. Item pack cards - in the same vein as the pathfinder sets - Could really add a nice touch to games.

3. Warhammer Old World metal coins - Cheap to make- HIGH Margin product.

Now I go off the reservation a bit,..

4. Official Warhammer career/race Halloween costumes - My kids would Eat It Up !!! Hell,. you could work a deal with Party City,. You would have people interested in them that knew absolutely NOTHING about Warhammer or WFRP3,.. Don't forget to include a little propaganda flier in the package about your other products.

5. How about a tablet or laptop app that mimicked the look and organization of all the bits, pieces, character sheet, career sheet, stance meter on a playing table, but would organize and save your character, as well as automate some of the mechanics?!? Maybe work a deal with the DiceCam guy. (roll REAL dice and your tablet reads them, pretty cool huh?) When a purchase of a major product is made i.e., core set, player handbook etc, a paper code could be included that would allow the purchaser to create an account and for a small additional fee, they could download this app? or something to that effect. Then you could still SELL PODs but they would/could be "digital",.. offering a MAJOR MAJOR Margin!!! While at the same time being very "cool" for the player. Certainly would be easier to organize your action cards now wouldn't it?? WOW!! the more I think about this one, the more potential it has,.. GM's just bring their laptop and some accessories, the players bring their tablets/laptops and they could all connect via firewire or wireless network, now include a dice roller or the DiceCam,… hhhmmmmmmmm,……..

Sorry,… got WAAAYYYY off track there,…. A Beginner Boxed Set, after TEW,… sounds good to me!

I reiterate my opinion from the previous thread.

MAKE THIS HAPPEN FANTASY FLIGHT!

I mean, y'all are already dominating the scene with the 40K rpgs, and have been creating a crazy amount of buzz around the new Star Wars RPG…all that's left to do is a retooling of how WFRP is presented and marketed, to make it one of the top contending fantasy RPGs on the market….while WIzards of the Coast and Paizo are busy trying to recreate D&D over and over again, you have an opportunity to make Warhammer one of the most original fantasy games on the market…which it already is to a certain degree…but it needs better marketing.

A beginner box would be the PERFECT entry point for people that are tired/bored of playing different iterations of D&D, and want some grim and grit in their fantasy rpgs, plus a truly innovative dice pool system. Sell it for around $30, and make it appealing to grognards as well as newbies (i.e. include a new adventure that would be usable by those of us that already own the core/hardcovers)…it's a no brainer!

Here Here !!!

Now we know why that Goblin is King!,….

Ok, I envision a box with simplified core rules, 4 or 5 pregen characters, some of the bits and tokens (stress, fatigue, stance meter…) and cardboard stand-ups. Actions cards for the pregens (no talent, career and specialty cards - just work them into the pregen sheets). You might even have action card sheets (as for the basic actions) if thats cheeper or easier to handle. And dice, of course.

Add a cool scenario.

Season it with some info sheet on how to "expand your Warhammer experience with these cool products: …" Maybe add a free, downloadable short adventure or simply a map of temple ruins to explore.

Voila. A shiny beginner box. I'd buy it.

Sorry, but this idea just came up: ask the fans to write up extra scenarios for use with this box, and have the best three entries win fame and a dice pack. If FFG offered a slick template, parchment background or something similarly fetching, for fans to use on the fan-made content, it wouldn't hurt, too, would it?

Just commenting on what GoblynKing said:

"I mean, y'all are already dominating the scene with the 40K rpgs, and have been creating a crazy amount of buzz around the new Star Wars RPG…all that's left to do is a retooling of how WFRP is presented and marketed, to make it one of the top contending fantasy RPGs on the market….while WIzards of the Coast and Paizo are busy trying to recreate D&D over and over again, you have an opportunity to make Warhammer one of the most original fantasy games on the market…which it already is to a certain degree…but it needs better marketing."

I have just bought into WFRP3. I am very excited about it! I have never played any form of WFRP, although I have played many other systems in the past; Runequest, DnD3.5, Traveller, CoC, SW2 and Saga etc. I haven't even played WH miniatures and I have a very rudimentary grasp of the WH world, but I have just bought into WFRP3. My introduction was the announcement that FFG was bringing back SWRPG. I was at once facinated at FFG's completely new approach to RPG…and very impressed! Having been out of Fantasy RPGs for a few years, I looked into it and was hooked. I think a beginner's box at this time, on the back of the SW announcement, would be a great idea. It should be produced along the exact same lines as the announced SWEoE Beginners Game.

WFRP3 is a terrific system, but it is a bit below the radar at the moment. I feel it would really take off on the back of the SW release with a new injection of energy that a beginners box would bring (and that with "The Enemy Within" on the horizon as well).

F

FStark said:

I 100% agree with you. Once SWEotE is out, I personally plan to sometimes post on the SWEotE board (of which I'll be a player/GM, yet I couldnt get the beta ) that a similar system exist for Fantasy RPG.

I hope players/GMs who are going to love SWEotE will give WFRP3 a chance, but to do so, a Beginner Box at a reasonable price will be needed. No one wants to spend 60 bucks on a Core Set not knowing whether your group will like it or not, except if you're a WFRP fan, or such as yourself, got so interested by SWEotE system that you were willing to try WFRP3.

Thanks for posting. It's good to know that SWEotE has already a positive effect.

Cheers

Ceodryn

I can say with certainty that IF Fantasy Flight do release a sort of beginner's box for WFRP, I will definitely be signing up to run demos at my FLGS!

Well FFG?!? …. Looks as though this may be an opportunity to redeem not only yourselves, but the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay line. What say you? Will you organize a revamped campaign to educate your retailers, the advertisements, arrange the marketing, create a POS and a small store presence, create a Beginner Boxed Set, do a re- write of the core set rulebook ( NOT new info mind you , just stated in a manner that is easier to absorb and organize. One in which the rulebook is prepared to DIRECTLY take up right where the beginner box rules left off), figure a way to capitalize on the hardcore fan enthusiasm by creating an OBVIOUS link to a web site dedicated to pulling and pooling all the vast material and information about YOUR game together, a "Fan" link?

FFG, utilize your resources effectively and you WILL realize an increase in revenue and margin, better enabling you to capitalize on your license investment.

OR,…

Do nothing. ….. Continue to alienate the fan base because you have already reached your predetermined return on investment of the license.

We in the fan community are hoping for the former.

The EotE Beginner's Set looks great, but at this point a Beginner's Box for WFRP v3 could be like a lighthouse that steers wayward ships into the shoals. Might be better to design a WFRP 4e first.

I disagree there Herr Arnulfe. Most of us who play WFRP3 think it's a great game system, yet we all agree that it wasn't rolled out the right way by FFG. There are just a few disgruntled fans, very vocal on this board, but the majority, it seems to me, are still hopeful for WFRP3 and just waiting a sign from FFG.

Assuming that FFG isn't considering WFRP3 dying/dead, and want to do something to revive it, a Beginner Box would tremendously help. Designing a 4th edition would take much longer than a WFRP3 Beginner Box.

Now, I am not hoping that FFG go all out marketing as Flyndad is describing. It's WFRP after all… not Star Wars. But a Beginner Box, pushed out to all retailers, with then a clearer product website that highlight where to go from that Beginner Box, and hopefully the help of the fan community to spread the word of this Beginner Box at FLGS would revive WFRP3. Obviously, the product line then need to be supported with a couple of supplements a year, and a few PODs.

Cheers

Ceodryn

Ceodryn said:

A Beginner's Box is geared towards reaching new players. I suspect the type of gamers who have a tolerance for massive fiddly bits wouldn't be deterred by the v3 corebox and supplements to begin with, in fact it would probably be a selling point for them. Trying to ease people into tolerating fiddly bits when they're not naturally inclined to is a fool's errand, IMO.

The other day we played The One Ring for first time. That is a really light rules game, narrative focused, and with very very simple but elegant mechanics. You only need 60 dollars, normal dice, a few pencils and sheets of paper to start playing it full power.

I really think that what the wfrpg 3 needs is not a beginners box, it needs a face lift. It needs to get rid of all its bad reputation and all its flaws, while keeping the few things that made it such an innovative rpg back in 2008. I really think nothing less than a new edition will suffice. That is my opinion.

Cheers,

Yepes

Herr Arnulfe said:

I don't think the bits are the deterrent to WFRP3 acceptance. They designed a great system, and could stick by it if they wanted to. In my opinion, the problem with WFRP3 is the entry price and the confusion as to what to buy. You can either shell 80$ for a Core Set or 30$ for a Player's Guide, but then do you need the Player's Vault? You're going to be the GM too, so do you need the GM's Guide, the GM's Vault, etc… Wow, this is a lot to find out to simply start a game.

A Beginner's Box that allows trying the system at a low cost before to shell $80 for a Core Set is critically needed, and a better product website that explains clearly what the Core Set is vs. Player's Guide/GM's Guide/Vaults are would be nice too.

FFG could of course scraps WFRP3 and design a 4th edition. However, if they still believes that they designed a great system, and if us, fan who are playing it and know that system, believe it too, then FFG can salvage WFRP3 by bringing a Beginner's Box, and we, the fan, can help by promoting the product in our local stores.

Cheers

Ceodryn

Ceodryn said:

I think it's pretty unlikely that FFG would have dropped the bits from EotE if they weren't a deterrent to some people. Many tried v3 based on the novelty value of the components alone, but in the long run people will only fork over hundreds and haul their components out week-after-week if they add enough to the game. I'm skeptical of a Beginner's Box being able to deliver the full v3 play experience, which is what people who are considering buy-in really want, even moreso than with other RPGs IMO.

I've posted a couple of comments regarding a red box before and it's nice to see some support for it here on the boards. When I saw the Star Wars beginner box I was hoping they may be thinking the same thing for WFRP.

Like a few others here, I think a $100 MSRP entry fee into the game is pretty steep and could stop quite a few from trying out the game. Yeah, I realize a lot will buy it from online discounters, but still it's not cheap at all. The negative backlash from 2nd edition fans and screams of "it's a boardgame" may have killed off some interest. This may be a way to get some back.

An abbreviated rulebook (no advancements, set stances) pregens with action cards or just an action sheet, a few tokens and stand ups, a few dice an original adventure (2 combat encounters, 1 social, 1 chase) to showcase the system.

I think it's doable. I'd buy it just for the adventure and dice.

(As an aside, The Enemy Within is now at the printers.)

Herr Arnulfe said:

I think it is too early yet to know what SWEotE final product will be. Reading the beta boards, some players are calling for and already creating "bits", for strain, critical cards, talents cards etc… The only big difference between SWEotE and WFRP3 that really reduce the bits factor are fixed actions vs. actions cards. Yet, most WFRP3 players love the action cards system. However, the game was badly marketed at launch, and a system which could have been a breath of fresh air to an aging RPG market, became instead a complete misconception and shot at first sight.

You're right though that a Beginner's Box wouldn't be able to deliver the full WFRP3 play experience. No, what the Beginner's Box would do is get players to understand that WFRP3 is indeed an RPG, not a board game (even though it has mechanisms inspired from board games, which makes it easier to learn for new players to the RPG genre), introduce the custom dices and action systems, and make it so at a cheaper price, with a fun adventure in a nicely designed box, that will get families and playing groups to say "hey that's a pretty cool game, maybe we should try the full experience of it".

Cheers

Ceodryn

Ceodryn said:

So first they enjoy a nice, lite $20 version of the game, then they plop down $60 or $100 for the core box, and before long they're studying component storage tutorials on Youtube? Isn't this a slightly romanticized idea of how gamers actually operate? People who want the stuff will buy the stuff, even if it costs them $100. The system basics are explained quite well in promo materials and internet forums. Only RPG internet theorists think in terms of testing the system that underlies the components before making a calculated purchase decision, and those types of gamers probably have friends who bought the game and can give them a test run anyway.

Herr Arnulfe said:

So, you're basically saying that a Beginner's Box concept is useless for any RPG game?

A Beginner's Box is an instant gratification purchase. It's cheap enough that you don't have to sweat about opening your wallet (or buying it for your kids or friends' kids - Sorry but not everyone can shell $60-$100 on a game), nor have to regret it if you end up not liking the game. Plus, a potential buyer shouldn't have to research for days internet forums to understand what to buy and what are the mechanisms (and let's have pity on the WFRP3 potential buyer who starts such a research and arrives on this FFG board, what a mess). It's a game, you want to play it, not research it ad nauseum.

A Beginner's Box provides a quick and easy entry to the game. The components in the Beginner's Box should obviously be able to be re-used in the full game, otherwise the gamer will regret buying it.

Of course people who WANT the stuff will buy the stuff, even if it costs $100. The issue is to convince people who are lukewarm, the majority of potential buyers out there. The hardcore fans will always fall, they are not the one FFG needs to convince.

As far as having friends who bought WFRP3 (or other editions for that matter) and can showcase it… ha ha! Right… like WFRP is such a well known universe and game. In the U.S., finding a WFRP group is like the Grail's Quest.

Cheers

Ceodryn

Ceodryn said:

A Beginner's Box for v3 wouldn't sell people on the game. It might convince them that the basic system is good, but that's not the issue for most people - there are tons of good systems out there. The issue is whether the components are worth the hassle overall, and that's something you can only figure out by getting the core box and giving it the old college try. EotE doesn't have the "X-factor" of massive fiddly bits, so its Beginners Box is a more accurate representation of what you'd actually be getting yourself into after buy-in.

Also, as you say yourself, a Beginner's Box for WFRP wouldn't be able to cover the WH setting. So a WFRP Beginner's Box would only be showcasing the system and players would still have to do their own research on the setting. Everybody knows the LotR and SW settings already.

So I'm guessing the Pathfinder and D&D beginner boxes were not financially successful and did not convice potential customers to ultimately buy the books? I mean, their settings and rulesets are well known enough to gamers RPG gamers, and if they are willing to spend a hundred instead of $30, why bother producing it?

sepayne7l said:

WFRP v3 is in a class of its own in terms of component-bloat, and it will probably remain alone in that class forever.

My guess is that every beginner's box etc. falls short on delivering the full experience of setting/ game mechanics/ components etc. Their purpose IMHO is to give beginners a first impression and hands-on experience with the game. What parts of the game should be presented in a beginner's box is open to discussion, of course. Often, rules for character creation and advancement are left out or severely cut down. Only a selection of races/ classes/ careers/ archetypes will be playable. Et cetera. There would never be hundreds and thousands of cards, blips, tokens and similar coffin nails in a beginner's box.

So, Herr Arnulfe is right: A beginner's box would fail at offering the full WF experience. But I think most people will happily admit they are fully aware they won't get a full experience with such a starter's set, and never expected that much. If they get a fun evening out of it, that's great. If they're buying the core set or guides & vaults and, generally, more stuff after that: A++, success beyond expectations!

asri said:

If the v3 Beginner's Box provided the following rules and components in addition to the custom dice and Intro adventure with pre-gens, then it would probably give newbies enough of a taste to decide whether the components are worth the hassle:

- Stance meters and Progress tracks

- enough Action and Talent cards to provide a sense of how they work

- Refresh tokens

- a few Status Condition cards

- a sample Party sheet

- a few spell cards

Now FFG could probably do a bare-bones version of these components that fits on 2 cardstock sheets, but they'd also have to include rules for using them, and that's where I think it would extend beyond the scope of a Beginner's Box.