crimhead said:

Yes, it would, because then we'd be looking at the whole evolution of the game. The different editions do not exist in vacuums. In many ways, each one was built as a response, correction, step, or reversion based on what came before. Such is in with 4th as well. It is not just a step beyond 3rd. It is not just a step back and rework of things that were done in 2nd. It is both. A legitimate comparison looks at everything involved with a games history wherever a connection exists and a comparison down the smallest component is possible. Doing otherwise is blindness in design consideration... but that is another angle beyond the count of boards sought for the future (from both / all previous editions)... so inherently on that you don't get to pick and choose which one. You are stuck with both on this issue.

When considering the evolution of a game over multiple editions, no legitimate review picks and chooses which parts of history are used and which are ignored. That's nonsense.

If 4ER does make it through all of the common boards sought (and even those who disliked 3E have and wish for its expansion boards in combination with some or all of 2E), then it will outstrip both in quantity... and MAYBE in consideration details of success or failure in BOTH take a shot at outstripping them in quality. That's just plain logic.

They certainly do exist in a vacuum. That's how they are played - one at a time. Each version is a stand alone game and is played all by itself. You can compare and contrast versions, but each according to it's own merits.

2nd edition doesn't have all the stuff that 3rd edition has, and 3d edition doesn't have all the stuff that 2nd edition has. You cant have it all at once - it's 2nd or 3rd; one or the other. Timescape cannot be played with the Forest board. The Dragon expansion is not compatible with the Dragon Tower expansion.

When you're making a practical decision such as which version to play tonight, which version to buy, or which version to take on the family camping trip, you have to compare one version to another. It's of no use comparing one version to everything the other two could have been if combined. NO version has all that. There is no such option.

In a comparison of 2nd vs 4th, 3rd is completely irrelevant. Anything that 3rd has that neither 2nd nor 4th has does not effect my comparison of 2nd and 4th because both of those versions equally don't have it ! If third edition came with a case of beer and a mail order bride that wouldn't make 4th edition any less favourable when compared to 2nd, nor would it be any less close to catching up to 2nd.

There will always be those that prefer 2nd over 4th, but for most of them that will be based on what 2nd edition actually has, not what 3rd edition has. Me, I prefer 4th as it currently stands to all of 2nd. But this is because of the things 4th has (which 2nd doesn't) that I like - it is not because 2nd edition doesn't have a Mountain board or Dragon Tower! That wouldn't make sense to me, 4th doesn't have those either.

Right now each version has expansion material not available to any other versions. Perhaps 4th will never have all the same material 2nd has, nor the exact same material 3rd has. But it will have more stuff than either of those in fewer than 4 years, more stuff than 2nd specifically in fewer than 3 years.

crimhead said:

I agree with JC,

We must compare it, to use the best ideas from both expansions !

And i can´t say it any better than JC does.

Off course, each edition has his own expansions, but we need to compare both editions to make 4th RE the ultimate game !

Most rules and spaces are used from 2th edition and the Dungeon layout is a idea from 3th edition.

I can´t see why the Dragon expansion cannot be used with the Dragon Tower. They are both from the same story after the Crown ending.

It´s awesome if both of them are in the same edition of the game.

Why can the Forest expansion not be used with 2th edition? There is a forest space on that board right?? The only thing you need to do, is change some rules maybe..

From the looks, FFG also thinks about Third edition players, not only Second edition players.

I am grateful for that !

Velhart said:

This is comparing Talisman 4th revised to everything we'd like to see in the game. To, as you put it, the ultimate Talisman game. This comparison is useful, I agree.

But this comparison is not useful when deciding whether you should continue playing 2nd edition, or upgrade to 4th. Nor is it useful in deciding (should you chose to switch to 4th) if you retain you copy of 2nd. That was the context of the comparison.

Velhart said:

I can´t see why the Dragon expansion cannot be used with the Dragon Tower. They are both from the same story after the Crown ending.

Absolutely, if you want to make house rules for combining 2nd and 3rd go right ahead. You can similarly put all those expansion as well as Timescape, the Mountain, and the City if you like into 4th edition. But the fact that you can mix 'n' match or design you own expansions or use whatever house rules you want doesn't play into a comnparison of the actual products IMO.

Velhart said:

Though I've never played 3rd, I'm grateful for that too. 3rd looks very cool!

Velhart said:

Well, I honestly don't understand why you guys don't think I can make a valid and meaningful comparison strictly between 2nd and 4th without consideration to 3rd. I think the concepts and mechanics in 4th are what they are and work how they work regardless of their origin. But you guys have more friends here than I do, so I'm willing to let it go.

crimhead said:

I agree

You must play what you like. You don't have to upgrade( 2th to 4th if you don;t want too.

QUOTE efidm=219817]

Well, I honestly don't understand why you guys don't think I can make a valid and meaningful comparison strictly between 2nd and 4th without consideration to 3rd. I think the concepts and mechanics in 4th are what they are and work how they work regardless of their origin. But you guys have more friends here than I do, so I'm willing to let it go.

No, you must say what you want.

I don't know what the problem is anymore.

It seems i agree with you both

And this is not about friends.

Everyone says what they think, and a discussion will be started.

I think prime difference is that the expansion boards we want to see were spread over 3E and 2E, not just 2E. And even with the Dungeon, it now exists in 2E, 3E, and 4E... not as isolated versions but as evolutionary (or de-evolutionary?) changes. So, that's just my perspective... Talisman versions as evolving steps, and hence why talking about expansions is inextricable linked to that the history as whole and in isolated parts.

Again, just my perspective and foundation of it, and that's all.

I'd recommend buying the full game instead of the expansion. The new board is very well done, and you can use it for 2nd edition games, too.

<sigh>

I just found out that Heidelberger were selling copies of the Talisman Upgrade Pack at Essen for €5. I guess the reasoning is that the English language Upgrade is not much use if you want to upgrade to a German language copy...

Still listed at €19.95 on the Heidelberger website though...