I have the old 2nd edition set. Is the Upgrade pack compatible with it?

Can't say for certain but my guess is yes. There is little difference between the 2nd and 4th edition board. The upgrade pack only mentions a rule sheet rather than book so it may be worth downloading the full 4th edition rules. The full new rules will probably be put on this site in time ayway. Only time will tell really. The 3rd edition, although not a patch on the 2nd, was better designed in terms of looking neater when you added the expansion boards. If the revised 4th uses a similar idea then you'll find things look very odd and the extra boards won't join up properly as the new board is a lot lot bigger. Essentially the upgrade pack seems to do away with everything but the board.

Geoff

Does not having the 'board' matter?

I own Talisman 2nd and 3rd edition. Nearly picked up the BI version because it was on sale. I haven't seen an image of the board for the FFG version. Since the upgrade pack doesn't include it, I would assume that the board in FFG's version is similar to the one in the BI version?

I would have to say no on the compatiability with 2nd edition. The upgrade brings in the new "fate" concept for original 4th edition. Well, now that I think about it... why not. All you can do is try. There really isn't a whole lot of difference between original 4th edition and 2nd edition.

can you still get this upgrade pack? is FFGs going to be doing another run/bach?

I think the point of the upgrade pack was to make 4th edition (BI) compatible with the expansion sets FFG has and will produce. If you buy this to play with 2nd edition, your new adventure cards, spell cards, and character cards will match nicely any 4th edition expansions you buy. You will have updated rules for you characters (including fate) and plastic minis.

However, the aforementioned spell and adventure cards from the upgrade will replace you 2nd edition cards. Any cards from 2nd edition expansions will not match. As for the board, your old board does not have any fate replenishment (which would suck) and will not fit nicely with 4th edition Dungeon or upcoming board expansions. You could still use those expansions - they just won't fit snuggly.

I recommend you sell 2nd edition and buy the actual revised 4th edition complete game. If you do choose to take the upgrade path, I second the suggestion to download the 4th edition revised rulebook. Not only will you need it for certian details, but fixed a number of annoyances from 2nd edition.

4E (BI) and 4ER (FFG) is a new edition of Talisman. It is generally not compatible with 2E, and definitely not 3E. There are minor incompatibility issues between 4E and 4ER, which is what the Upgrade Pack is for. It is very unlikely that you could use the Upgrade Pack to bootstrap from 2E to 4ER.

As to availability... we're all still waiting to see if the Upgrade Pack is ever released. So if you are looking to jump into 4ER from scratch, simply buy the whole game from FFG same yourself the wait and the hassle with the Upgrade Pack.

crimhead said:

NO! Don't sell that classic piece of gaming history! There are a lot of homebrews for 2nd ed on Talisman Island and WarpZone that keep it thriving and fun.

YES! Buy 4R because it is a great game. FFG is going to come out with more goodeness.

Agreed... Anyone who has a complete 2E base game or expansions should not sell it; I regret handing off mine and all of my expansions to my daughter years ago. Personally, there are some aspects of it that I still consider superior to 4E, though that may be fuzzy nostalgic recollection. 4ER has its perks as well (though I'm not talkng about superficials like art). There's no reason why you can own and even play both, though they are not interchangable in their parts.

thanx for the replies all! another question if i may...so it sounds like they have not put out the upgrade pack yet,is this correct?

Feldrik said:

I vote for this

Keep the 2th edition for your collection.

Otherwise you will be disappointment in the future, that you have sell that old classic game !

KONRAD said:

Yes, the Upgrade was released and then ran out of units. It has been on back order everwhere for a number of months now. No word as to the actual status of a new print run in a while... so... if you haven't bought the new version, you should. Just be certain you're buying the "Revise" 4th Edition (published by Fantasy Flight Games) and not the previous 4th edition (published by Black Industries).

Indeed there is a small group of loyal 2nd edition fans who still prefer that to 4th edition revised. But, the more expansion sets FFG releases (and therfore the awesomer 4th edition revised becomes) the smaller this group will become and the less certain will be their preference for 2nd ed.

In practise I thing this means that as 4rth edirtion revised grows, the interest (and hence the demand and market value) for older editions will decrease. Titan and Conquest of the Empire used to sell for sick money on eBay. Since the reprints, the old versions are selling for way, way less than they used to. The only reason 2nd and 3rd edition Talisman are still valuable is that some poeple still think those games are better. Sell before they find out otherwise!

Keep it if you want - but if the extra money would mean the difference between a real 4th edition revised vs and upgrade pack to be used with second edition... While the choice is yours.

crimhead said:

And on what do you base this, other than your own assumptions and the very minimal minority of players who actually hang out on this forum?

crimhead said:

Any can also be attributed to those who want to collect such having already acquired it. Rarity of availability is only one factor that drives price up. Declining need due to new editions and/or that everyone who wants a previous editions already has acquired one are again one factor only.

And 4th has a very long way to go to catch up to all that was produced for 2nd or 3rd.

At the current rate of release, if FFG does keep up with new editions of previous edition expansions or equivalents (not counting smaller supplemental packs, which are nice as well) it will be between 4 and 5 years before what was done with 2E and 3E is matched. In the meantime, those editions with all their expansions still exist. And other that changes to make things faster (and sometimes easier) in 4ER, there really isn't any monumental difference between the editions when what matter is considered.

Let's leave it at this...

ced1106, if you're still out there and haven't be utterly put off by all this... buy what you want, keep what you want, play what you want. What the "market" for a game may or may not do in the future as compared to its previous incarnations isn't the defining factor of your own enjoyment. And if enough money is the concern, well, you've already got 2E and its expansions, right? And that won't cost you anything but the time to play it and have fun.

And instead to listening to anymore sales pitches that you don't need (and didn't ask for in the first place), take a look at the catalog and consider what's available for 4ER all on your own. I'd also recommend you drop by a couple of good fan sites, one for all Talisman editions, and two purely for previous ones, if you don't already know about them.

www.TalismanIsland.com

www.boardgame.de/talisman.htm

www.randomdice.com/games/talisman/

The first site is probably THE place to go for all editions and what's happening currently among fan expansion designers and fandom in general. Jon New runs that site and usually keeps us all up to date on the latest with Talisman inside and outside of the commercial side. The other two are not updated anymore, but still fun to browse around for previous editions. Now go "play" something.

Addendum... my previous post's final recommendations are to you as well, Konrad. Didn't mean to ignore you. Buy what you want, play what you want, and enjoy.

Wow, didn't mean to hit a nerve there JC. Nothing personal going on here...

Gamers are a small group to begin with. Talisman players a smaller group still. Loyal 2nd ed devotees an even smaller subset within that. I didn't mean to diminunize your feelings on the matter - I apologise for that. Still, it's not much a stretch to suspect that as 4th revised grows it will acquire new converts. At least a few.

4-5 years to catch up? At the "current rate", we can expect a new board expansion this coming spring (2010), the following spring (2011), and the spring after that (2012). That's two and a half years to. At the "current rate" we will also get Frostmarch this fall, and two small sets (why wouldn't you count those anyway?) in fall of 2010, and fall of 2011.

I count in 2.5 years we will have four small expansions and four big board expansions. Second edition only ever had three small expansions and three boards; and one of those boards isn't very well loved. (Of course this is based purely on my own assumptions, the very minimal minority of players who actually hang out on this forum, and the players whom I know personally).

In any case, we should expect three board expansions and three small expansions by spring 2011, that's 1.5 years , and we'll be caught up with 2nd edition. Where do you get 4-5 years?

As for my unsolicited advise, well, this is a public forum, right? I'm not trying to sell anything to ced1106 - I don't work for FFG (and I'm certainly not in the market for 2nd edition). I made a relevant recommendation of one game over another from one gamer to another. I did it politely. He's obviously interested in 4th edition revised material or he wouldn't have asked about the upgrade pack.

My suggestion that (if money is a setback) he essentially trades in his 2nd edition is no less appropriate than your suggestion that (if money is an setback) he just keeps playing 2nd! I respect your opinion and your freedom to share it. I offer a different perspective.

crimhead said:

I agree

n 2012, we should have all Regions, and maybe that we get in 2013 the dragon tower + Dragon expansion.

And then we have everything

That would be still 4 years..

Who knows what they'll produce after we get the four corner regions (which may even be different regions than those of 3rd edition). I'm keen to find out!

I'm not sure if they'll do a Dragon Tower. It's been pointed out that some of the cards printed like Shovel and Map would preclude a new board replacing the inner region. Not to mention the Lord Of Darkness can teleport you directly to the Crown Of Command.

They might be a ble to fit a small board (even a tower) directly over the Crown of Command space (but not the rest of the inner region). This would allow Shovel and Map to continue working. Maybe said board could be an alternate ending? I'd be surprised if it's The Dragon Tower though. We already will have an ending which entails fighting a big bad enemy (Frost Queen). Also we need a Crown of Command space for the Lord Of Darkness to function (though they could errata this). I wouldn't be surprised if we see an actual Crown Of Command tower, wherein you have to accend to the top to find the Crown (or the Queen, or to claim your vin via quest cards).

Timescape is another one I'm not sure if we can expect. Most gamers I know don't like it. I've heard more negativity over this than any other expansion. But we might see it yet. Between the hardcore completists, Those who liked Timescape, and those who would give FFG's rendition of Timescape the benefit of a doubt (I imagine it would get a serious makeover), they might justify selling it. Especially years down the road (when new ideas might be scarcer).

And I fully expect the unexspected! FFG will doubtlessly work some wonderful ideas of their own into fresh new expansions and regions. This is a golden age for Talisman!

crimhead said:

They can simply changed some rules.

They can say that you must take out the cards(shovel and map) out of the game etc

They can also change a rule for the Lord of Darkness, that you will warp somewhere inside the tower etc.

And they can skip the whole crown idea

Everything is possible i hope. Then we can finally get rid of that stupid crown

Anyway, i hope that it will be the same regions as third edition. ( lands cannot change, and i don't want too

I am sure that the Forest, Mountains and City will become awesome boards !

Ice Queen is nice, but we are still stuck with the inner region. It's a good replace for the Crown ending !

It's time to change that

Why is it in the time calculations that everyone thinks the 4 regions were the only expansion boards ever produced for any edition of Talsiman? Did I say anything about just the four regions only? A-hem... anybody out there actually remember the full history of the game? At least V. remembered a little more than that.

And V., why are you waiting for someone to make those changes for you? Just do it yourself! You can, you know.

One other thing to consider, which has been mentioned before, is what if FFG could come up with a board based expansion never done before. That would be something to distinguish 4ER as more than a remake or upgrade from previous editions. That would be something to keep sales stronger longer. Especially if it were released in the middle of other scheduled releases instead of after all other remakes. But personally, I just not sure what there is that could be done wholly new that would have wide appeal. The past boards, between a mix of 2E and 3E already cover the most feasible and broadly appealing concepts.

I have heard of notions to expand other spaces into regions... oops, I mean "realms." And based on several differing fan expansions there were notions metioned for a ring of "seas" around the board. But beyond these and the previous realms, I'm hard pressed to think of anything else? Has Talisman, based on its FULL history of expansions, reached its FEASIBLE limit for expansion boards?

Since this is now way off topic herein, I'm going to start this off in a new topic thread

JCHendee said:

Hi JC,

I was only telling to Crimhead that everything is possible..

Off course, maybe it will not end by the 4 regions etc, but if we sum this up then we have all the old regions in 2012..

That's all. .

My previous post was not to you JC. Sorry if i have said something wrong

About the changes..( i like official expanions etc. This also means for endings etc. So i wait until FFG will make something for this.

I don't want to create my own endings and other things, unless it is already a rule from a old expansion etc

It's not worth to debate about this..

Greetings,

~Velhart~

JCHendee said:

No, but you did say something about 4th catching up to 2nd in 4 to 5 years. To me catching up to 2nd means three card expansions and three board expansions. That would be equal.

What I'd calculated was that (by the current rate) we'll have three board expansions and three small expansions within 2.5 years, and that 4th edition revised will be caught up to 2nd edition 1.5 to 2.5 years earlier than by your calculation.

You haven't shown your work for that calculation, but if you're adding two years for the Timescape board and the Dragon's Tower, that's outright unfair. If in 4-5 years 4th revised has produced four corner regions and Timescape and the Dragon's Tower, than fourth hasn't caught up to 2nd and 3rd - it's far surpassed them both! That would be six expansion boards (not to mention six small boxes). Neither 2nd nor 3rd had that many expansions.

Incidentally, I was comparing 4th edition to 2nd edition only. I've never played 3rd edition, and I don't wish to compare 4th to 3rd for that reason.

Yes, it is my assumption that the next three boards (whatever they are) will fit the corners like the dungeon does, but that is not really relevant to my calcualtions which were purely based on quantity . I did also mention both Timescape and The Dragon's Tower in another post, as well as potential brand new regions. Maybe your comment about time calculations wasn't in reference to me?

In looking at all the board based expansions, we have to look at the crossover between 2E and 3E. The Mountain and Forest realms were from 3E only as far as I know. The City and Dungeon were in both.

Talisman 2E, Boardgamegeeks

Talisman 3E, Boardgamegeeks

So far, what I see, are the Dungeon, City, Forest, Mountains (Crags). The last three are "space expander" boards associated to one main space on the main board. I don't know if the Dungeon was associated to a space in 3E; it wasn't in 2E. Then there's Timescape, which has very sharply differing opinions between players - most either hating or loving it and very few people inbetween. Dragon's Tower can also be classed as a space expander for the central space of the board. We can hope something similar might happen on that front, as I hear more and more talk about alternative endings for the game (so I'm not the only one bored ... excuse the pun... with the same ending after 20 years).

Discounting Timescape, or the potential of something new in 4E in its place, that's 5 board based expansions if 4ER tries to match or outstrip its evolutionary predecessors. 2009 is almost over and we had the Dungeon for that. 4 more potential boards would be 4 more years... IF the current schedule is kept up. In the past, the schedule was not kept up with previous editions. At present, we still have very little to go on for how 4ER will work out.

With the present months of lapse in reissue of the Upgrade Pack (and yet it is still on the product list as pending), there are other influences inside of FFG that will take precedence over time. Runewars is coming out as the next step in the world from Runebound. Other fresh game products / lines may be released as well, since Descent may have also run its course and a successor or next evolutionary step could be waiting in the wings for that one. All such releases will take precedence over expansions for previous games if push comes to shove in the production schedule and budget.

And I already implied above that I'm not talking about catch up to 2E or 3E base in raw count of all expansions. That's meaningless. And yes, I am talking about both 2E and 3E conjoined, since that's what it would take to match both together for all the realm boards people liked the most. There is not picking and choosing what you like as the basis of comparison. It's about what everybody likes together when we're dealing with reality. It's the BIG ones I'm talking (and mostly what was being talked about)... just like in several other FFG game lines. For some of those, the schedule of the big box expansions were further apart than estimated as the years went by from the core game's initial release.

Talisman does not live in a pocket universe all on its own; and it is not the flagship of FFG. It is part of a very large product line, a massive endeavore. It's schedule does not exist in vacuum. I stand by my estimate, not only by the numbers, but by any reasonable business sense. We can hope for the best, but it is unlikely to be better than what I've just explained... likely not even that good, looking back at past editions.

Frost March's sales to - and response from - the Talisman community at large (beyond the very minor minority on the forum) will also be a key factor in estimating and planning what will come in the future. And the mention by FFG of a large and small expansion each year was an estimate, a hope perhaps, not a binding contract with us. Don't expect it to be so.

Quantity is really the only meaningful way we can compare expansion releases. (If we bring the quality of expansions into this we will most likely hit an impasse on account of tastes. Personally I think 4rth revised is already ahead of 2nd in that regard, but that's just me). I recongnize that 3rd edition had two boards each in their board expansions (not the Dragon's Tower). I'm willing to count those as two expansions each.

It's also not meaningful to compare 4th revised to the combined tag team effort of 2nd with 3rd editions. 2nd and 3rd are separate games and the expansions from one are not compatible with another. It's fair to compare 2nd vs 4th, 2nd vs 3rd, or 3rd vs 4th. 3rd and 2nd are not on a team. Would it be fair if I criticized 2nd edition based on a combination of everything either 4th or 3rd has to offer?

Comparing 3rd vs 4th, yes 4th needs 4 more boards to "catch up". it will take three and a half years at the current rate for this to happen (not four or five years). Yes, the rate could slow down, but it could also speed up, so the curent rate is a good place to start.

I still don't think this is a fair figure though, because (at the current rate) 4th will have not only five board expansions, but five small card expansions that 3rd never had! If you want to count exact figures of characters and cards per expansion, that would be more fair. I haven't - I'm only assuming that after five board expansions and five small expansions (3.5 years) 4th will be MILES ahead of third in both card and character counts (and tied for realms).

It seems like you (in defining "catching up") want to take note of everything that either past incarnation had that 4th doesn't, but consider nothing that 4th will have that those versions didn't. If you have something against 4th edition that's your business, but be fair when comparing expansion material.