Howlrunner's ability states: "When another friendly ship at range 1 is attacking with its primary weapon, it may reroll 1 attack die."

Does the range reference the range between the attacker and the defender, or is it the range between the attacker and Howlrunner? Biggs' ability is also similarly worded, so this question can also apply there.

Thanks.

doctormungmung said:

The range is between the attacker and Howlrunner. If it were not, it would be worded, "When another friendly ship is attacking at range 1 with its primary weapon, it may reroll 1 attack die." This effect would then globally affect all friendly ships and would be way too powerful.

Budgernaut said:

That's reading a lot into the card. While your language is more precise, the card as worded doesn't make any reference to the range being between Howlrunner and the attacker. "Attacking at range 1" in every other instance would only refer to the attacker and the target. If it meant the range between Howlrunner and the attacker, it should say "When another friendly ship is attacking and is within range 1 of Howlrunner…"

Also, there's nothing limiting the ability to a primary weapon. That also is reading more into the card than is printed.

It may indeed be a powerful ability, but there's nothing indicating that the universal effect would be too powerful.

kingbobb said:

Wow.

Let's break it down…

"When another friendly ship at range 1 is attacking with its primary weapon, it may reroll 1 attack die."

Subject: " another friendly ship"

Verbs: " attacking" and " reroll"

Objects: "primary weapon" and " 1 attack die"

Prepositional phrase: " at range 1"

Who is at range one? The subject!

Who is the subject? Another friendly ship!

Who must "another friendly ship" be within 1 range of? The pilot who this card text is regarding (Hint: its the name at the top of the bloody card) - Howlrunner!

What does "another friendly ship" get to do (assuming the condition of being within 1 of Howlrunner is met)? Reroll 1 attack die, if he is attacking with his primary weapon.

The card text couldn't be more clear.

What part do you disagree with?

Daveydavedave said:

Clearly, I missed something on the card. Stating that it doesn't say anything about primary weapon when it does should have been a big clue.

Snark aside, there's still nothing on the card that says the range 1 refers to Howlrunner. There's also nothing in the rules that says that a card's abilities are based on that ship.

But the only thing that's clear is that the ability applies to primary weapons. The subject is another friendly ship. The card and rules don't tell you what the subject needs to be at range 1 from.

kingbobb said:

The card text in question is on the Howlrunner card. The card text refers to Howlrunner because its on the Howlrunner card, because its a card of Howlrunner cause she has a card and its titled "Howlrunner."

I don't think I have access to enough words in the English language to help you understand this card text. You should totally read it however you want.

--linguistically accurate parse of sentence here---

"Nah, that can't be right."

The only tools you have to go by are the words on the card. They have been parsed accurately for you. I am not sure what more you would like, but feel free to click on the Rules Questions link at the very bottom of this page and send the question in to the designers.

Yes, what Budgernaut and Daveydavedave say is correct. The friendly ship in question is within range 1 of Howlrunner, not its target. As they say, if the intent were that the friendly ship were within range 1 of its target, the card text should instead read "When another friendly ship is attacking at range 1…" instead of the actual card text, "When another friendly ship at Range 1 is attacking…" The order here makes clear that [at Range 1] modifies friendly ship, not attacking. The only sensible interpretation is that Range 1 is measured from the ship whose card this appears on (otherwise, why not measure from other friendly ships, targets they're not attacking, obstacles in space, whatever…)

P.S., if you need some kind of authority to back this up, I have a Ph.D. in linguistics (specializing in syntax).

Daveydavedave said:

Can you show me something from the rules that says that an ability on a card refers to the card as a default? FFG rules are infamous for having poorly worded phrases that don't always express a rule clearly. This seems to be another example of that. The rules contain an explanation of what is meant by "you" on a card, but says nothing about how a card refers to itself in the absence of anything else. In this case, the range component of the ability could refer to Howlrunner, the range of the attack, or even both.

just adding to this…..

does this ability only confer to 1 friendly ship or any friendly ship within range 1 of howlrunner?

thanks in advance

bullyboy said:

Any friendly ship(s) within Range 1 of Howlrunner, is how I read it.

Howlrunner can confer the reroll to any and all friendly ships within 1 of her.

This ability is a fantastic force multiplier. Taking several Academy pilots and cheaper named Tie/ln pilots with Howlrunner looks like an effective way of getting the most punch for your points.

kingbobb said:

When you have to ignore basic logic and grammatical rules in order to get a rule to work how you hope/want it to work, the truth is is probably doesn't work like that.

kingbobb said:

No, it could not. You are grasping at straws. The text that is giving you trouble is "at range one", which modifies a "friendly ship", not the "attack". Where else are you supposed to measure that range from? You HAVE to know which ships you're talking about before you confer benefits on them.

Until you can come up with a parse of the text that supports your interpretation (a parse, not just confused talkings), there's no point in continuing the discussion.

"When another friendly ship at range 1 is attacking with its primary weapon, it may reroll 1 attack die."

Text of Howlrunner's card.

Can anyone show me from the rules where an ability on a ship uses the ship as the origin of the ability? Because without that, the sentence above is vague. "At range 1" could mean lots of different things, because there's nothing pointing you to what it is at range 1 from.

The relevant section from the advanced rules that I can find states the following:

"Card Abilities
Many card abilities use the word “you”
to specifically reference that Ship card.
Abilities on Ship cards cannot affect
other ships unless explicitly specified
by the ability.
Example: Night Beast’s ability reads:
“After executing a green maneuver, you
may perform a free focus action.” This
ability can only be used to give Night
Beast a free focus action (and only after
his ship executes a green maneuver).
Likewise, Damage cards and Upgrade
cards only affect the ship to which they
are assigned, unless otherwise specified.
Unless a card ability uses the word
“may” or has the “action:” or “attack:”
headers, then the ability is mandatory
and must be followed."

Which is not helpful at all, because Howlrunner's ability fails to state what "at range 1" is measured from.

Let's change the subject to Garven Dreis: After spending a focus token, you may place that token on any other friendly ship at range 1-2 (instead of discarding it).

So by your definition, Kingbob, Garven should be able to give a focus token to any Rebel if they are within range 1-2 of an enemy?

Budgernaut said:

<3

I don't know, "When another friendly ship at range 1" seems pretty specific to me.

Maybe if it said "When another friendly ship at range 1 of an enemy ship" I would agree with you.

But whatever, you can interpret the rules anyway you like as long as you are having fun.

Budgernaut said:

No, because Gavren's ability contains the key word "you," which by the rules means the ship bearing the ability. Howlrunner's card lacks this.

ArcticSnake said:

I don't want to have to interpret the rule: I want the rule to spell things out in a way that there's no room for interpretation, there's just the rule. As it is, the rule has to be interpreted. I think the more likely meaning is that Howlrunner's ability affects friendly ships within range 1 of Howlrunner that are attacking, but that's just an interpretation based on an assumption, and not a conclusion that is supported by the rules.

Then send it in. There's a Rules Questions link at the bottom of the page. Let us know what you hear.

kingbobb said:

kingbobb said:

Well for me, the rules are clear enough as is.

Saying "another friendly ship at range 1" is the same as saying "another gunman at 5 paces" or "another bus stop at 3 km" or "another solar system 300 billion light years away" - the origin is itself unless specified - "another friendly ship at range 1 from an enemy ship", "another gunman at 5 paces from the saloon door" or "another bus stop at 3 km from the bank " or "another solar system 300 billion light years away from the horsehead nebula"

The card and/or the rulebook would be too wordy if it included a whole english grammar textbook.

There's always the rules questions link that you can go to, then tell us of their reply.

For fear of beating a dead horse, I hesitate to post this. I suspect Kingbobb meant well, pointing out that the wording could have been even clearer (probably true), suggesting other readings were reasonable (I think careful consideration of the other possibilities makes this unlikely). And everyone hates to be caught out in public; "sunk cost" reasoning and the need to defend ourselves leads us all to some uncomfortable places.

So with due respect to all involved, here's one more crack at it. Consider the "Swarm tactics" card, with this text: "At the start of the Combat phase, choose 1 friendly ship at Range 1. Until the end of this phase, treat the chosen ship as if its pilot skill were equal to your pilot skill."

Yes, I see the key word "you" here too, but bear with me. The effects of this card should be exactly as (un)ambiguous as Howlrunner's ability. "You" specifies which pilot skill is transferred (that of the pilot with this skill), but does not enter into the interpretation of a "friendly ship at Range 1." In other words, if "ship at Range 1" in fact meant "any ship that finds itself within Range 1 of an enemy", which I understand to be the suggested alternative interpretation relevant to Howlrunner's ability, it seems to me that that interpretation should apply here as well. And likewise to Biggs Darklighter's special ability (on the alternate reading, any enemy ship attacking a Rebel ship at Range 1 from itself would have to target Biggs if it could).

To be clear, this isn't meant as an argument that the alternative is incorrect (I see an independent consensus on that in this limited sample), just that whatever applies here should apply as well to Swarm Tactics and Biggs Darklighter. So… if you think there really is room for doubt here, I'll second (or third, or fourth) the suggestion to submit a rules query to FFG, which may prevent similar disputes arising in other cases where the origin of a range measurement is left implicit.

Kingbob, I will grant you that Howlrunner is the implied first pilot of whom "another friendly ship within range 1" is concerning. The card does not say "another friendly ship within range 1 OF HOWLRUNNER." You rightly pointed this out.

My point is that this implication is not up for interpretation. It is the only logical implication. "…another friendly ship within range 1 (of howlrunner) is attacking with its primary weapon…"

As was pointed out above if the order of the sentence was altered, then the implied meaning would change: "…another friendly ship is attacking within range 1 (of a target) within range 1 with its primary weapon…"

The order of the sentence as written makes the implied pilot quite clear. You gotta be within 1 of howlrunner to get the reroll.

To have a distance, you have to have two objects. One object is stated - "another friendly ship," while the other object is implied (albeit unmistakable) - howlrunner's ship.

I thought this was the rules question link? At least, the Rules Question link at the bottom of my page takes me back to the main forum for this thread.

And I do appreciate all the responses. My intent isn't to stir up trouble, but to make things free from them. While my interpretation is less common, it IS, by the rules of grammar, a correct interpretation of the card given the rules. Holwrunner IS the most LIKELY second subject for the range 1 clause, but it's not the ONLY possible subject. Implicated in the card are three possible targets: Howlrunner, the friendly attacking ship, and the target of the attack. The only identified subject is the friendly attacking ship. The second subject has to be implied.

Swarm Tactics is helpful, but not dispositive. Swarm Tactics only has two possible subject, the bearer of the card, and one friendly ship. The card doesn't involve any other possible subjects. And it also includes the "you" language, which is included in the rules.

My intent here is only to point out that the rules have a blank spot in them. I'm used to FFG rules doing this. It's frustrating, because it would NOT require the rules to extra wordy in order to address. FFG already included a sidebar section explaining Ability cards and how they work, and it's already overly wordy and wholly unhelpful. Rules should NEVER put a player into a position where the have to imply something to know how the rule works. An implication means that you have to make a logical jump in order to reach your conclusion…and someone else is likely to come along and reach a different conclusion that you cannot disprove. It leads to breakdowns in play when the players don't agree on what the implication should be. There's a simple fix here (although some might dispute that FAQs and errata are not simple).