Yesterday I was using the spirit speaker and we kept fighting shadow dragons, the master in particular has that fire breath ability which upon successfully rolling a surge he is allowed to target other heroes with the attack.

Stone skin states that I must exhaust the card before the attack roll is completed to add 1 gray defense die.

I was never the initial target of the attack in which fire breath was added after the fact, so had no reason to activate stone skin.

After the attack roll is made, the surges allow the master to add the fire breath ability, so I was caught in the breath.

So should I have preemptively activated stone skin, which I must exhaust the card and a fatigue to use?

Should the OL state his intent that he may use the fire breath ability if he gets a surge?

What if I did exhaust my card, and the overlord decided not to apply fire breath, thereby calling my bluff, so so to speak and making me waste my skill.?

I would just like to see how others play it in this type of situation.

Thanks

Follow up question: One of the conversion kit characters have an encounter ability with

"Gain: Z Z: Add 5 <3"

Z = Surge

Does he have to say before the attack that he is going to use the ability if he gets the surges, or can he wait until after the dice are rolled?
The ability is really powerful and can one-shot most monsters, especially since he running as runemaster in our group, and have lots of "free surge" abilites.

As far as I know, there is no requirement to pre-select your surges before the roll. You pay your fatigue, you take your chances. There are other effectively one-shot skills / abilities.

Triu said:

I kind of figured that.

Does the stone skin duration last for only that attack, or until the card is refreshed?

Card reads: When you or a hero w/i 3 spaces of you is attacked, before dice are rolled, exhaust this card to add 1 additional gray defense die to that hero's defense pool.

Since you exhaust you card it is only good once per turn and as far as I know for a single attack.

Unclechawie said:

Yeah that is what I thought. Thanks

Regarding the original Stone-Skin vs. Fire Breath question.

This is the wording of Stone-Skin: When you or a hero within 3 spaces of you is attacked, before dice are rolled, exhaust this card to add 1 additional gray die to that hero's defense pool.

According to this you do not play Stone-Skin until the person you want to protect is actually attacked, not before they are attacked. I would let you play it to protect an extra target of Fire-Breath before their defense dice. A normal attack has only 1 "dice are rolled", but a Fire-Breath attack has more than 1 "dice are rolled" so go ahead and play Stone-Skin before the appropriate "dice are rolled", it doesn't say "before ANY dice are rolled".

Good catch. Wording is important. I should have looked up the actual text instead of just replying to what the OP wrote.

Terah said:

Yes good catch. That makes sense because all targets roll separately for defense.

i am not sure about the use of stone skin caught in an effect of an attack on another. for instance blast is used on an attack for a specific space but effects all adjacent spaces, figures caught in the blast have not been attacked the figure in the center is the target for range and line of sight, stealth figures would take damage from an attack on an adjacent figure without the need for the extra 3 range.

with the wording of the card stating the figure benefitting must be the target of the initial attack i do not see how it would work for others in blast or breath of fire. i am confused though on the duration of its effect, it says the extra die is added to the die pool, not added for this attack. this leads me to believe that it lasts until the card is refreshed. i may be off on this though.

Terah said:

This would absolutely not work. The wording on the card says to use it before dice are rolled. Since this is a surge effect that grants fire breath it can't be applied until after the dice are rolled, how are you supposed to use it before the dice are rolled for one of the heroes that is now suffering the effects of the fire blast?

Before attack dice are rolled? Before defence dice are rolled? Before any dice are rolled? In the last case, I guess you need to declare when you are going to use it before the first attack action of the game. After that point, dice have been rolled and the ability can no longer be declared.

But seriously, I assume the point is that you can't wait to see how well you roll (defense) before deciding if you want another die. I think as long as the defender hasn't rolled their dice, the skill can still be used.

In this the termanology is clear that you use it after the attack is declared, but, before the dice are rolled. if the attack misses due to lack of range or rolling an X then the shill is still used and the extra die is still awarded.

Unclechawie said:

For every roll of dice there is a before . Stone-Skin does not say "before attack dice are rolled".

In a Fire Breath attack there's more than one roll of dice (later targets will roll defence dice) so there's more than one "before dice are rolled". I am simply using it before those later dice are rolled. That fits the requirement of "before dice are rolled".

i see your point on "before" and while it clears things up it makes them more muddy. an openness like this in the rules creates confusion and arguments at the table. just when i thought this had been play-tested better and used better language than first edition they leave things like this in and add the range for stealth.

looks like this is another thing to go on the house rule board so it always gets treated the same.

Dwome said:

I certainly agree with this. "Second Edition", I thought, "that will let FFG learn from their mistakes and give us a clear unambiguous game to play". Nope, same old tsunami of rules ambiguities.

While it may seem muddy, it doesn't seem muddy to me. Just agree on what suits you and be done with it. I think Stone Skin makes the most sense to use BEFORE defense dice are rolled. I've accepted it and moved on. If I play with a bunch of you later (which I never will) and you want to argue the nuance of the rule, we will reach a new agreement for that game only…but I enjoy the game as-is with the rule the way I see it and the balance of teh space-time continuum remains intact.

Another "dice rolling' effect that is equally as "muddy" are the skills (and there are several of them) which say "If one damage is applied after defense dice are rolled"

That one will throw you for a loop as well. Because there are attack dice, defense dice, then there are surges, and there are overlord cards…there are many more facets to determining if damage is done other after the defense dice are rolled. For example, if I roll two surges, I'm entitled to wait to see the defense dice before deciding if I want to apply extra damage or remove fatigue.

Now throw in that skill that requires you to assess if you did damage "after defense dice were rolled" does that mean before or after applying the surges? You can be a walking stressball worrying about the wording on these cards.

At the end of the day, our group decided, if damage was done. Period. Then the affect occurs. If the OL stops it with his cards, or if surges are needed to make the damage occur, then so be it.

I didn't quote anyone specific in this simply because there were several voicing the same thing. Please review page 14 of the rule book regarding the example of combat. The bottom left hand talks about dice rolling. It says that the attacker an defender simultaneously roll their dice. Thus there is absolutely no confusion or "muddying" as it was put. Stoneskin must be used before the dice roll. Since the dice are rolled at the same time, before the defense dice is also before the attack dice. Hope that provides some clarity to the circumstances.

Some people seem to be missing the point. Yes, you have to use Stone Skin before rolling defense dice. If it's the original target of the attack, then attack & defense dice are rolled at the same time. If the attacker uses a surge from that roll to attack additional targets (see OP), then additional defense dice have to be rolled for the new defender(s). Before they roll their defense dice, can Stone Skin be applied to the new roll(s)?

Triu, Wow did I ever miss it!!!!!! I went back and re-read the thread and apparently I missed an extremely important post that clarified things for me. Reading that post, my whole view of the thread discussion changed. So, with that in mind, my position has already been iterated, oddly enough, by the post I missed. Due to the wording indicating that the dice are added to the defense pool of the hero that is being attacked, a strict interpretation would not allow Stoneskin to be used to increase the defense of a hero affected by an attack if he is not a target of the attack. Same ultimate answer, but the logic I provided was off in left field somewhere. Just goes to show that what my boss used to say is true, "Perspective is reality," for that person.

So you can Stoneskin the target of the original attack, but not the other defenders affected by the attack (not attacked directly). I wouldn't play it that way, but a very literal reading of the rules seems to support it.

My reasons are based more on how it plays than RAW. Since the Spiritspeaker has to be in range, pay a fatigue, & exhaust the card, it's not like Stoneskin is going to be madly abused on every attack. I've seen the opinion that the Spiritspeaker is the weakest class, so limiting it at all seems like a bad idea.

Well, this is one of those - 1 attack roll > multiple targets/multiple defense rolls.

An effect like blast increases the attack radius to the adjacent squares - so I would say the peripheral characters were also being attacked by the blast attack. The actual target of the attack just represents the central square of the attack radius.

And as surge abilities are applied after the initial attack roll - you simply need to exhaust stoneskin before making the defense roll for the stoneskin target

Page 14 - Step 2 "roll dice" - in the end of the text "Both players simultaneously roll their dice".

There is no such thing as "after the attack roll but before the defense roll".

Does it still hold true that an area of effect attack only targets one square (but damages figures in many squres)? If so, perhaps only that targeted square is being attacked. The fact that the area of effect is added after the attack roll does seem to get around Ironskin. I hope the next FAQ clears this up.

You can't roll all the defense dice when you're rolling for the attack dice, simply because some surge effects (blast, fire breath) change the number of targets.