so siince you still loose the challenge would ur opponent although have to claim his own claim but would his guys still get power for renown in such since you still lost?

You do indeed lose the challenge, which means that the opponent won the challenge, giving his participating characters their rightful renown reward. But, your opponent does have to fulfill the claim. So, as I understand things, your opponent's participating characters will claim power for renown, and he/she may also perhaps collect power for an unopposed challenge, but that opponent will then have to satisfy the claim of the challenge (i.e., discarding, killing off characters, giving you some power from their power pool).

Your explanation is correct in every way but one…

The only mistake you made is including the sentence "giving you some power from their power pool", which Red Vengeance does not do. Claim for a power challenge involves the claim-satisfying player (typically, the loser, but not in this case) moving power from his house to that of the attacking player. In the case of Red Vengeance, that means moving power from your house card… back to your house card.

This scenario is explicitly addressed in the FAQ.

Specifically, when you use Red Vengeance, the winner of the challenge stays the same (so the recipient of power "stolen" for a power challenge stays the same). The loser of the challenge stays the same (something to keep in mind when dealing with Responses, passives, etc.).

But someone else is responsible for claim effects "as if" they were the loser of the challenge. The "as if" only goes as far as resolving claim effects. If this happens to be the attacker (ie, winner) in a power challenge, they will receive power (as the challenge winner) stolen from themselves (as loser of the challenge for claim) - resulting in no actual change or movement of power.

wow ….makes that card alot less useful :/

How do you figure? You're only going to play it when you lose a challenge anyway. So all those things are going to happen whether you play the card or not. But if you use it in a military challenge, it's a 2-character swing than what they were expecting (+1 for you, -1 for them) and you come out ahead. In an intrigue challenge, it matches the card you were going to lose anyway (which is now the event card) with a random loss for them, and you break even. And in a power challenge, it turns a 2-power swing (+1 for them, -1 for you) into no change in power, so you actually come out ahead there as well.

The card is phenomenal as is. In a 1-on-1 game, it punishes the attacker for winning the challenge. It really doesn't need to "shut off" unopposed, renown, responses, etc. to be one of the best event cards in the game.

yea i suppose but first time played it was amazing haha but yea i overstated the way worse still a great card and love it

-Istaril said:

Ahhhh. That makes sense. Thank you for the clarification.

If you've moved one power from a character to an opponent's House card with Eastwatch-by-the-Sea to wreck their Brotherhood deck, and they win a Power challenge against you, and you play Red Vengeance, they can move the power from their house to a Brotherhood character, right?

(trying to think of a case where Red Vengeance on a Power challenge actually accomplishes something, claim-wise)

I would say yes, because they are still claiming that power.

Also, this card is amazing in melee because you can pick ANY player to satisfy the claim. So if someone does a high claim challenge at you, you could make a different opponent have to fullfill that claim. And as Martell, you still get to trigger all your "after you lose as defender" effects.