Do I have to bounce an opponents' character after returning a ring character to my hand?

More broadly put, can I pay the cost of something, and not invoke the effect?

Super-ultra-mega-no.

To expand on that just a little….

If you can legally initiate an effect, you are allowed to do so, even if there is something stopping the effect from resolving completely or successfully. However, you must be able to legally initiate it by a) meeting the play restrictions, b) paying the cost and , c) choosing all required targets. If you can do all of those things, you can initiate the effect, no matter what will happen with the result. If you cannot do all of those things, you cannot do any of them in some sort of lame attempt to "half-initiate" the effect.

Of course, if you do initiate the effect, the effect happens - or at least as much of it as can happen. So it's not like you can kneel 4 influence in the Dominance phase, play Westeros Bleeds and say "that's OK; you don't have to discard any characters if you don't want to."

So, that's the rule: if you can legally initiate the effect you are allowed to do so, whether the effect will be successful or not. But if you do initiate it, any part of the effect that can be successful will be successful.

Applying that to Ghaston Grey: in order to initiate the location, three things must be true:

1. It must be the challenge phase
2. You must have a Martell Noble you own/control to return to hand
3. There must be an opponent's character of equal or lower printed cost to choose as a target

And it's an all-or-none proposition. You cannot do #1 and #2, but then decide not to choose a target for #3. If you don't do all 3, you don't do any of them.

And, once you do all 3, the "return that character to its owner's hand" effect must happen if it can.

So yeah, it is pretty much a "super-ultra-mega-no" that Ghaston Grey will ever be successfully triggered without sending an opponent's character back to hand (barring saves and cancels, of course).

As a preface to the following, I knew the answer would be no. The card would be too good otherwise. Anyways, in my quest to understand the game more, I'd like to understand your email a little better ktom.

"If you can legally initiate the effect, you are allowed to do so." -ktom

So in ghaston grey's case, step 1: I return a ring character to my hand in the challenges phase (cost), step 2: I choose an opponents character of equal or lower to bounce (effect).

So I am allowed to do that effect, but I don't have to do it? Where in the rules does it address this?

Or is it that the entire thing is the cost in GG's case. If it were written, "Return a ring character to your hand. Then, choose an opponents' char and return it to its owners hand." That is an example where if he has no valid characters in play, I can still bounce.

Or should it be, "If you can legally initiate the effect, after paying costs, you have to."

In the case of Cyvasse, I can complete the effect by kneeling something already knelt. So in the case of GG, why can't I complete the effect by return something to their hand that doesn't exist.

kr4ng said:

Remember what I said above about having to meet all play restrictions, pay all costs, and choose all targets before you can initiate the effect? So what you're really looking at with Ghaston Grey is, step 1: in the challenge phase (play restriction), step 2: return a Noble character to your hand (cost), and step 3: choose an opponent's character with equal or lower printed cost (target requirement), in order to step 4: return the chosen character to its owner's hand (effect).

Steps 1, 2, and 3 are not independent. You do all three, or you do none of them. But you are allowed to do them, even if Step 4 cannot happen (for one reason or another).

A better illustration would be "The Lion's Will," which reads "Any Phase: Pay 2 gold to choose a character. Kneel that character." So in that case, you're looking at, step 1: in any phase (play restriction), step 2: pay 2 gold from your gold pool (cost), and step 3: choose a character - any character - (play restrictions), in order to step 4: kneel the chosen character (effect). Again, Steps 1, 2, and 3 are not independent. You have to be able to do all 3 in order to be allowed to do any of them. BUT, there is nothing in #3 that says the chosen character must be standing when you choose him. So you could choose a character that is already kneeling - even though that means nothing will happen in Step 4.

kr4ng said:

kr4ng said:

So, in order to pay the cost, you have to meet all the other requirements for initiating the effect (meeting play restrictions and target requirements). If you do pay the cost, you have initiated the effect. And if you initiate the effect, you have to resolve it.

kr4ng said:

So, most of your confusion here seems to be that you are trying to choose the target as part of the effect, but the rules are very clear that choosing the target is part of the cost/initiation.

Thanks ktom, I get it now.

I was always playing it correctly, but now I understand why it is how it is.