Graver said:

As I recall, the genestealers infect, breed and infiltrate until eventually a 'genetic switch' gets flipped and a genesteal magus is born. Once this individual matures, he starts to organize the cult and attempts to take over the planet. it's not exactly clear if the magus knows it or not, but after reaching maturity, he (and it's always a male) broadcasts a signal into the warp. the Hive Mind sees/hears that signal and follows it to the world in question.

aethel said:

Thanks for that Aethel

Hopefully it will be sent to me in the coming days so I can drool over it.. I really liked the WFRP Bestiary style and am glad to see the same sort of thing for DH. It manages to create great atmosphere and background along with the stats.

Hellebore

Pneumonica said:

Well, technically 'Tyranid' is just a name given to the collective of organic monstrosities that is invading the galaxy of the Imperium. There is no such thing as a Tyranid, as the term refers to the entirety of species birthed by the Norn Queens - including the Genestealers. One could say if you took several Hormagaunts away from the influence of the Hive Mind, because they would revert to their instinctive behaviour, they would no longer be Tyranid. However, they still belong to the 'collective' (read: not in the hive mind, borg sense at that point) in that they were engineered and birthed by the Norn Queens for a very specific purpose. In that regard, Genestealers still belong to the Tyranid as they fulfil a function - infiltration of worlds to draw hive fleets to worlds rich in biomass. Given that they function autonomously despite not being synapse creatures, but still serving the hive mind's and for the greater purpose of the Tyranids, I'd argue that they are essentially Tyranid.

Hellebore said:

They're utterly vicious. WS/BS and Ag in the 50s, Unnatural Agility x2, good Int, Per and WP scores, piles of appropriate skills and talents (Dodge +10 on Agility 51(10) is very nice), carapace armour, a longer-ranged, Tearing shuriken catapult (plus Mighty Shot on the warrior himself)... Xenos Minoris seems like it might be understating them, but they're clearly the upper end of that range (they won't win a war by themselves, but they still outclass human soldiers everywhere).

They go first in combat (nobody else you know gets 1d10+20 on their initiative tests, do they?), and stand a decent chance of still acting if surprised, dodge one attack per turn 71% of the time (if you hit them - Hard Target makes that more difficult than it sounds), never suffer from outnumbering in melee, are even better in groups, are extremely mobile (sprint + hipshooting + Ag bonus 10 = 20m move and a single shot), and generally will run rings around the majority of adversaries they could concievably encounter.

Except in regards to raw strength/resilience, they're definately a match for the Astartes, and their agility, mobility and raw firepower make them a more than capable adversary even then. Tweaking the stats and equipment to represent other Aspect Warriors shouldn't be too hard either.#

And, quite frankly, the Rangers are pretty damned good as well...

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Please, please go on. I'm getting the book either way, but I'd like to hear about Rangers' stats asap.

Idaan said:

A BS rarely seen outside of Metallican Gunslingers, the (IMO) best sniper rifle in the game (think Longlas with better Pen, twice the range and where the Pen gets even better the more you aim), several of the relevant 'precise shooting' talents (can't get them all, otherwise how would you boost their abilities to represent Pathfinders?), and then everything else they need to sneak in and out of situations (stealth capabilities surpassed only by the Lictor - The chances of any human being spotting a concealed Ranger are incredibly small, given the Ag of 50, the +50 to concealment tests, and the +2 degrees of success on opposed tests, such as the concealment test made to hide). If there's an Eldar Ranger within 800m, you won't know about it until people start dying...

Wow, actually good then.

Probably because GW didn't print it...

(sure they had to ok it first, but I think it's funny).

Hellebore

They're utterly vicious. WS/BS and Ag in the 50s, Unnatural Agility x2, good Int, Per and WP scores, piles of appropriate skills and talents (Dodge +10 on Agility 51(10) is very nice), carapace armour, a longer-ranged, Tearing shuriken catapult (plus Mighty Shot on the warrior himself)... Xenos Minoris seems like it might be understating them, but they're clearly the upper end of that range (they won't win a war by themselves, but they still outclass human soldiers everywhere).

When you read the entry, it sounds about right. To quote:

Minoris: In numbers the threat can pose a severe threat to those who confront it. However, unless encountered in large numbers or allied to greater greater forces, it is unlikely to pose a threat to the Imperium's control over a particular world or the local dominion of the god-emperor.

Ok, assuming acolyte cell level confronters, the threat is definitely severe, but fifty of them probably won't dominate an entire world.

Something I'm wondering is, where would an eldar go once he finished the path of the avenger? He seems to have a lot of skills and talents, so what would he look like if he'd followed the avenger path, the scorpion path, the steersman path, and finally onto the witch path? He'd run out of advances to take rather quickly...

Hellebore

Hellebore said:

I think the thing to remember is that NPC profiles aren't "snapshots of a character at a particular stage of their lives" so much as "mechanical constructs designed to represent a particular creature's most relevant abilities at that specific moment" - they don't, afterall, follow the PC rules for character advancement and development, unlike in WFRP. It doesn't have to have been built up from, or be developing towards, anything...

But still, if the talents and skills in DH can be accrued by a human PC in the space of time that a campaign runs (which will probably not be more than 100 years) what happens to an eldar that has done exactly the same things for 20 times longer? Are we to believe that humans learn all their abilties in 20 years and an eldar takes 400? Or that an eldar will never learn anything after the 20 years taken to learn everything humans do?

Hellebore

Whose to say the Avenger hasn't readed other paths already before reaching the Avenger path? *evil grin*

Hellebore said:

Linear development is fiction. It gives players a carrot to chase and a sense of accomplishment but it is mearly a game mechanic. If you try to think of it logically and apply a linear mode of learning to both the PC's and NPC's which have vastly different life spans, it will utterly fall apart.

Learning is a series of give and take, sometimes more give sometimes not. Most of the take in a humans life span is before they hit the age of 20. After that it's pretty much a series of give and take. As we learn or practice one thing, we tend to focus more on it then something else which is not as important to us. As a result we get better at one thing but may get "rusty" at something else which we had neglected when our focus switched.

In order for someone to just get better all around constantly, they would need to continually practice and utilize everything they have ever learned just to insure they don't get "rusty" at it or forget bits or all of it. Just look at foreign languages. If you take one is school but then never use it or practice it afterwards it will be forgotten.

So, an Eldar, no matter branch, is just an Eldar at that stage of their life. To get there, they may have done a lot and learned a lot, but they also may have forgotten a lot as well as their life path and focus changed.

Yeah... that same Eldar probably spent 170 -odd years painting a picture of an imaginary river and hugging wraithbone-tree constructs. Dangummit weeaboo space-elfs... BURN I TELS YA, BUUURRRNNN

Anyhoo.. they are aliens, even trying to speculate in their abilities to learn new stuff or if this is simply the maximum for their potential (gratz kid, you reach the Top...now go die in a war) is futile.

Look at it this way... They've had a bazillion million years since the fall... why didn't they just fix it? They live forever, they could learn skills that would NEVER be matched, they could produce tech-stuff that would put Necron / dark age of tech to shame.... but they don't.

I guess they like Fat Boy Slim alot... They are numba 1.. so why try harder.. Decadent bastards

Look at it this way... They've had a bazillion million years since the fall... why didn't they just fix it? They live forever, they could learn skills that would NEVER be matched, they could produce tech-stuff that would put Necron / dark age of tech to shame.... but they don't.

Actually, they had ten thousand years since the fall and most of that time has been spent "fixing it".

Cifer said:

What Cifer said plus you have to remember that you get diminishing returns. The closer you get to "perfection" if there is such a thing the harder the going gets. Think of it like trying to accelerate up to the speed of light. For every KPH you increase your speed the more energy it takes to gain that next KPH. Negligible at slower speeds but enourmously important at speeds closer to C. Look at it this way, the training regimens of top athlets is almost exclusionary to other activities. Michael Phelps ate, slept, and swam to train (with maybe the occasional hit off the bong thrown in, which since it is not a performance enhancing drug.. I could not care less) and when this regimen is lowered or abandoned he swims slower.

Sure a eldar could hone a single combat skill to inhuman levels due to his long lifespan but keeping it there would be a monumental chore. This is actually represented in the aspect system where each aspect strives to be the best at a single type of combat. I would limit the uberness of aspect warriors to a single.. well aspect of combat. It also should not be too far above human ability either there are always limits.

Cifer said:

Sure a eldar could hone a single combat skill to inhuman levels due to his long lifespan but keeping it there would be a monumental chore. This is actually represented in the aspect system where each aspect strives to be the best at a single type of combat. I would limit the uberness of aspect warriors to a single.. well aspect of combat. It also should not be too far above human ability either there are always limits.

And i believe this is where the Exarchs of the aspects come into play

edit : messed up a tag

llsoth said:

The fall happened in ~29,000AD, so they've not had a long time.

The other thing is that according to the background, the eldar collect skills and abilities so that after a lifetime of following various paths, they end up with a huge range of skills and abilities.

I'm not sure that Phelps is the best example because it's mainly muscle conditioning and that suffers far more from inactivity than mental conditioning.

But what you're saying is that an eldar will learn all the skills in DH in the same amount of time as humans, but then can't advance after that? That humans achieve the full gamut of ability in a few decades and that eldar somehow are stuck there for a thousand years? That just seems like a retroactive justification for the functioning of the game, rather than an inuniverse reason.

Hellebore

What Cifer said plus you have to remember that you get diminishing returns. The closer you get to "perfection" if there is such a thing the harder the going gets. Think of it like trying to accelerate up to the speed of light. For every KPH you increase your speed the more energy it takes to gain that next KPH. Negligible at slower speeds but enourmously important at speeds closer to C. Look at it this way, the training regimens of top athlets is almost exclusionary to other activities. Michael Phelps ate, slept, and swam to train (with maybe the occasional hit off the bong thrown in, which since it is not a performance enhancing drug.. I could not care less) and when this regimen is lowered or abandoned he swims slower.

That is most debateable. For anyone interested in this, I suggest reading up on the Technological Singularity, which is usually the point where a civilization builds a machine capable creating an improved version of itself.

Does anyone know the Eldars' view on AI?

Cifer said:

Eldar use ghosts... literally.

Hellebore said:

Except that mechanical "learning" (the gaining of skills, talents and characteristic advances in exchange for amounts of experience) and actual learning from a real-life perspective are not inherently the same thing, nor should they be considered such. The former is as much a game construct to allow characters to change as a reward for player involvement/success as anything else, and possessing a given skill, talent or characteristic advance is only there to tell you, in game terms, what a character is able to do within the context of the rules - time taken to learn those abilities are arbitrary impositions determined by the GM, not a function of the rules. Given that real-life knowledge is not as 'plug-and-play' modular as any RPG skill system, nor is it necessarily a linear progression, it seems to be a pointless endeavour to try and mirror real-life learning with in-game advancement in any but the most token manner (because it invariably results in discussions like this one, where the notion is presented that "X species has a natural lifespan of 30 times that of humans, so should have 30 times as much experience" or equivalent).

Thus, it is utterly irrelevant how long it took an Eldar to gain a particular array of abilities - what matters is what the abilities allow the character to accomplish in-game.

The background for the Dire Avenger - about half a page before the stat block, plus a quarter-page sidebar with adventure seeds based on them - presents the idea that Dire Avengers (presumably like all Aspect Warriors) have an affinity for the changing nature of battle, able to shift and adjust their tactics and their objectives instantly to adapt to changing circumstances around them. That's something that can't really be presented in the rules, as it's more a matter of how they're run as NPCs than something that yields a discrete numerical/mechanical benefit. That's the kind of thing they could easily spend centuries learning, the kind of battlefield instinct and combat awareness that human soldiers can scarcely imagine, let alone dream of.

And, once again, it's an NPC stat-block. It matters not how the character got to that state - what matters is how the NPC performs in practical terms.

It does matter if you want an Eldar PC in a party. Either you curtail everyone elses advances to make it appear as though the eldar has more experience or the eldar comes across as a human with pointy ears because, advance-wise, there is virtually no difference.

I understand that it is an NPC, this is a question inspired by, but not bound to, that NPC. Of course it's a construct of the GM and gaming in general. That doesn't change the problem though. So, in order to make an eldar PC work you'd need to curtail their age so that they won't have half a dozen careers under their belt and thus be completely out of the league of every other PC.

Which means you can't play a 700 year old eldar with a human party if you want party balance. Of course that's an imposition and I,m sure there are people that don't care about that.

But it doesn't solve the problem, it sweeps it under the rug. The truth is that someone that old will have learned quite a bit, and the eldar are known for their learning capability. However the current list of skills and talents are available to a human within a game, so to have a comparative effect in that game an eldar would need many more skills and talents to learn, or an increase in skill mastery (say to +30 or +40).

Otherwise age and paths become pointless.

Hellebore

Hellebore said:

Perhaps their high stats themselves are an indication of their siupperior skill aquisition?

As far as any issues with PC Eldar and part ballance, that's not an issue... or the same issue as anything else. How about a Space Marine with a gaggle of Adepts? Just like Marines, they were never meant to be PC's in DH.

As I understood The Eldar Path system they dedicate their existence to one path, mastering that lifestyle and skill set, and once mastered, they renounce that life and go on to a new one. So that Dire Avenger may decide that he has mastered that path and decide to master gardening, in that he would forgot most of what he had learnt as an aspect warrior.

I don't remeber if this is still the case, but once guardians were non martial eldar who at one time had been aspect warriors and hence recalled a shadow of their former abilities. I'd imagine the Eldar advancement scheme to be very different to the human one.

As for the Singularity, as far as I am concerned, 40k is a universe where the Singularity does not and can not occur, for some reason. It really doesn't fit.

I don't know. To me, the Eldar advancement scheme seems similar to the Career system, except:

• Elite advances cost much more and are significantly more rare.
• When you reach a certain Rank (you can figure out which, I'm not handling numbers here), you instead drop that Career and move on to another one.
• When you've dropped a Career, you (I imagine) lose some of the Skills, Talents, and/or advances that you gained in that Career. Perhaps you "cash in" points on old Skills and Talents, so that something like half of what you spent on a given trait is "cashed in" by giving it up in order to pay for new traits (obviously it's a point loss, but that's the basic trade off).

Something along those lines seems about correct - note that it's probably not exactly as I describe it.