Can i choose a standing character to stand?
Dinstict mastery
The way that I understand it, no. You cannot "try" to do things, generally, in AGoT LCG.
orion_kurnous said:
Can i choose a standing character to stand?
Yes, provided the character has a crest other than [shadows], because Distinct Mastery does not say you have to choose a kneeling character. However, the standing effect will be unsuccessful, because the character would not have gone from kneeling to standing (this could matter if you have responses after).
divinityofnumber said:
The way that I understand it, no. You cannot "try" to do things, generally, in AGoT LCG.
divinity is probably thinking of the "cannot" rule. When a card "cannot be X," the rules specifically state that it is illegal to target that card for X. For example, if you have something like Knight of the Rainwood, which "cannot be discarded," you cannot "try" to discard him with a "choose and discard effect" - because the rules say he is not a legal choice. But you can "try" to discard him as part of a general discard effect (eg, "discard all attacking characters") - only to fail to do so.
The general rule is not that you cannot "try" to do things. It is that you are allowed to trigger any effect, provided you can meet all the requirements for initiating it - which includes paying costs and choosing targets. Distinct Mastery has 2 requirements for initiating it:
- As a player action, play the event card from your hand
- Choose character with either a WAR, HOLY, NOBLE, or LEARNED crest as a target
If you can do those 2 things, you can play the event - even if it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the chosen character will not change its status from "standing" to "kneeling."
However, assume that there is a "cannot stand" effect on the crested character you want to choose. Whether it is currently standing or kneeling, the "cannot stand" condition makes it illegal for anyone to choose him as a target for an effect that would stand him. So, the "cannot stand" effect on the character makes it impossible for you to do #2 above, thereby making it impossible for you to play the event at all.
So that's the difference. If you can legally initiate an effect, you are allowed to "try" to do anything. But there are situations where you are not allowed to "try" something because what you are trying to do is prevented from legally initiating.
Thanks ktom, but them i dont understand why a player can stand a shadow standing whit kindoms shadows, because i believe its practically the same.
ktom said:
divinityofnumber said:
The way that I understand it, no. You cannot "try" to do things, generally, in AGoT LCG.
There's a nuance here we should probably clear up.
divinity is probably thinking of the "cannot" rule. When a card "cannot be X," the rules specifically state that it is illegal to target that card for X. For example, if you have something like Knight of the Rainwood, which "cannot be discarded," you cannot "try" to discard him with a "choose and discard effect" - because the rules say he is not a legal choice. But you can "try" to discard him as part of a general discard effect (eg, "discard all attacking characters") - only to fail to do so.
The general rule is not that you cannot "try" to do things. It is that you are allowed to trigger any effect, provided you can meet all the requirements for initiating it - which includes paying costs and choosing targets. Distinct Mastery has 2 requirements for initiating it:
- As a player action, play the event card from your hand
- Choose character with either a WAR, HOLY, NOBLE, or LEARNED crest as a target
If you can do those 2 things, you can play the event - even if it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the chosen character will not change its status from "standing" to "kneeling."
However, assume that there is a "cannot stand" effect on the crested character you want to choose. Whether it is currently standing or kneeling, the "cannot stand" condition makes it illegal for anyone to choose him as a target for an effect that would stand him. So, the "cannot stand" effect on the character makes it impossible for you to do #2 above, thereby making it impossible for you to play the event at all.
So that's the difference. If you can legally initiate an effect, you are allowed to "try" to do anything. But there are situations where you are not allowed to "try" something because what you are trying to do is prevented from legally initiating.
@ktom - thank you so much for this clarification! At the 2010 DoIaF, I remembered Damon coming to judge something, and saying something about AGoT not allowing players to "try" to do things. And, I seem to have missed some of the context about that. Your reply was really helpful in clearing this up in my head. Thanks!
orion_kurnous said:
Thanks ktom, but them i dont understand why a player can stand a shadow standing whit kindoms shadows, because i believe its practically the same.
- Can I play this event card from my hand?
- Is there a character with a crest I can choose to stand?
If the answer to both is "yes," you can initiate the event. And since there is nothing in #2 requiring the character you choose to be kneeling, you can use Distinct Mastery to "try" to stand a character that is already standing. The end result is "unsuccessful stand," but you can attempt it.
In order to initiate Kingdom of Shadows, you ask three things:
- Did I just win an INT challenge?
- Can I kneel all copies of Kingdom of Shadows in play?
- Is there a character with the SHADOW crest I can choose to stand?
Again, there is nothing in #3 requiring the character you choose to be kneeling, so you can "try" to stand a character that is already standing. The end result is "unsuccessful stand," but you can attempt it.
So I'm not sure where the idea these two would lead to different results is coming from.
divinityofnumber said:
@ktom - thank you so much for this clarification! At the 2010 DoIaF, I remembered Damon coming to judge something, and saying something about AGoT not allowing players to "try" to do things. And, I seem to have missed some of the context about that. Your reply was really helpful in clearing this up in my head. Thanks!
