1. What do normal people drive in the Imperium?

2. Does the Imperial Guard have a Humvee equivalent?

I just read the Enforcer omnibus (a great read) and it gave vague mention to trucks, so I was wondering if we have any sources or art on/of civvy stuff. All I know for sure is about aircraft (Arvus Lighter and Aquila Lander) and that Dan Abnett made a fluff error in speaking of civilian land speeders.

As for the Guard, one thing has always irked me. You see their light vehicles - the Sentinel walker, or the Tauros buggy - and then it's a straight step up to the Chimera tank. I know that the Astartes (and Arbites, and Sororitas) utilize the Rhino for an APC purpose, but what of the Guard? It has bugged both my group and myself immensely.

Plushy said:

1. Thier feet! lol. Seriously though, look at how many different types of vehicles we have here today, and multiply that by te size of the Imperium. I would say anything and everything dependent on local enviroment/tech-level/need/politics/availablilty/social-status/education-levels/ability-to-service. In keeping with the grim dark themes of ignorance, most peeps in the Imperium would walk though.

The Arbites have Scarab Cruisers so there are roads built for cars and trucks,so one can assume given the conitions I've mentioned, cars and trucks would be the norm. However you could have a planet where everyone rode scooters, bicycles, powered skateboards (MegaCity One influence!), trains, gondolas. I imagine a scene where nobles in Scintilla ride in skimmers above the masses who trudge their way to the manufacorums, a lucky few riding bicycles, or a Forge World where the main mode of transport is by pneumatic cylinders in a tube system. Just use your imagination and tailor it to the feel that you want to portray in any given location.

2. I expect an IG Regiment would have whatever was appropriate to the unit type that was available on the world where the regiment was raised (if deemed necessary). Otherwise see answer #1, especially for light infantry!.

These answers are based on the impressions I have built of the Imperium over the years, I can't quote a source.

Interrogator Z.

Plushy said:

Like Zakalwe said, it varies depending on the world, but in general the average Imperial Citizen is a destitute peasant who relies on public transportation (or his feet). For the elite class that own vehicles (or have one provided by an employer), internal combustion engine-driven four-wheelers (i.e. cars) are common on most civilized worlds.

Plushy said:

The Outrider Scout Vehicle usually fills this role, for the Imperial Guard, well-equiped PDF, and the Adeptus Arbites.

Plushy said:

There is a 'civilian insurection vehicle' listed in the Aporcypha: Vehicles And Riding Beasts free download from the early days of this Forum. For trucks, the Gaunt's Ghosts novels make frequent mention of ubiquitous vehicles called Cargo-8s (presumably because they have 8 wheels)- there are other, rarer configurations as well (Cargo-12s, etc).

Plushy said:

The Chimera is the IG's equivelant of the Rhino- it's more of a transport than a battle tank.

Talking "civilian vehicles"
I normally treat the situation in most imperial societs like in China a couple of decades ago: while there ARE civilian models it is something more common among the upper class, not among the masses.

I use the terms "PersoCar" for something like a compact car or sedan, "Utility Car" for something like a van o pick-up. Jeeps & buggies are in use as well, but mostly in rural areas or frontier zones.

Inside "closed hives" their are only "E-Cars" (as I guess the fumes would prove to much of a problem for the ventilation) with exceptions for necessary power-houses like the macro haulers). Bikes are in use as well.

My assumption to the "lack of civilian vehicles with the masses" is based the "surplus income" mentioned in DHcr. A regular worker has about 30 thrones a month "surplus" and a skilld worker (rank 5) would have about 45. As a rule of thumb, I think that the price of a car would be between 2.000 and 3.000 thrones. So, I do not see those with "the people".
That said, privileges of foreman and other people might include access to a car on certain days a week or certain weeks a year (which would underpin the feudal nature of service to a guild or trade house).

Of course, in a world with technical understanding (Hive, for example) scroungers and reclamaitors might go about jurry-rigging a "Frankenstein" back together…but who to them if they cross a Tech-Priest!

Using OW rules for vehicles, then…

Combat Bike

Type: Wheeled Vehicle
Tactical Speed: 100m
Cruising Speed: 50 km/h
Maneouvrability: +0
Structural Integrity: 15
Armor: Front 15/Sides 15/Back 11
Size: Hulking
Vehicle Traits: Bike, Rugged
Crew: 1 Driver, 1 Passenger
Weapons: Two front-facing Fixed Basic weapons

Enforcer ‘Scarab’ Patrol Cruiser

Type: Wheeled Vehicle
Tactical Speed: 70m
Cruising Speed: 50 km/h
Maneouvrability: +0
Structural Integrity: 30
Armor: 20/18/16
Size: Massive
Vehicle Traits: Enclosed
Crew: 1 Driver, 1 Gunner, 4 Passengers
Weapons: Turret-mounted twin-linked Heavy Stubbers

‘Outrider’ Scout Vehicle
Type: Wheeled Vehicle
Tactical Speed: 90m
Cruising Speed: 65 km/h
Maneouvrability: +0
Structural Integrity:
Armor: 16/14/12
Size: Hulking
Vehicle Traits: Open-Topped, Rugged
Crew: 1 Driver, 4 Passengers
Weapons: 1 passenger-operated Heavy Stubber turret

Rhino APC
Type: Wheeled Vehicle
Tactical Speed: 50m
Cruising Speed: 35 km/h
Maneouvrability: +0
Structural Integrity: 40
Armor: 35/30/28
Size: Massive
Vehicle Traits: Amphibious, Command and Control, Enclosed, Rugged, Super-Heavy (no Ponderous trait)
Crew: 1 Driver, 10 Passengers
Weapons: 1 turret-mounted Storm Bolter

Variants:

Combat Bike with Sidecar: Increase passengers by 1, add a Sponson-mounted Heavy weapon on the sidecar’s side of the vehicle
Arbites Rhino: Increase passengers by 10 (hull-mounted criminal racks)
Sororitas Rhino: Replace Storm Bolter with Twin-Linked Heavy Flamers

Super-Heavy? On a Rhino???

BYE

A few coments on your stats, Plushy:

Manouverablility +0 on a Combat Bike? If a two-wheeler isn't more manouverable than a tank, what is? -And I've never seen armoured combat bikes used by anything other than Space Marines (and, if you are a Judge Dredd fan, the Adeptus Arbites) in 40K, so I would impress on your players that your stats are not for a generic motor cycle, which would be easily destroyed in combat, but rather for extremely rare elite vehicles…

Scarabs are listed in the Apocryphia as being 'Enormous', not 'Massive' (they are big cars, not tanks).

H.B.M.C. is right: 'Super-Heavy' is a designation applied to ginormous building-sized tanks, like the Baneblade, and not to standard battle tanks/ troop transports.

Revised:

Combat Bike

Type: Wheeled Vehicle
Tactical Speed: 100m
Cruising Speed: 50 km/h
Maneouvrability: +10
Structural Integrity: 15
Armor: Front 15/Sides 15/Back 11
Size: Hulking
Vehicle Traits: Bike, Rugged
Crew: 1 Driver, 1 Passenger
Weapons: Two front-facing Fixed Basic weapons

Enforcer ‘Scarab’ Patrol Cruiser

Type: Wheeled Vehicle
Tactical Speed: 70m
Cruising Speed: 50 km/h
Maneouvrability: +0
Structural Integrity: 30
Armor: 20/18/16
Size: Enormous
Vehicle Traits: Enclosed
Crew: 1 Driver, 1 Gunner, 4 Passengers
Weapons: Turret-mounted twin-linked Heavy Stubbers

‘Outrider’ Scout Vehicle

Type: Wheeled Vehicle
Tactical Speed: 90m
Cruising Speed: 65 km/h
Maneouvrability: +10
Structural Integrity:
Armor: 16/14/12
Size: Hulking
Vehicle Traits: Open-Topped, Rugged
Crew: 1 Driver, 4 Passengers
Weapons: 1 passenger-operated Heavy Stubber turret

Rhino APC
Type: Tracked Vehicle
Tactical Speed: 50m
Cruising Speed: 35 km/h
Maneouvrability: +0
Structural Integrity: 40
Armor: 31/31/20
Size: Massive
Vehicle Traits: Amphibious, Enclosed, Environmentally Sealed, Rugged
Crew: 1 Driver, 1 Gunner, 10 Passengers
Weapons: 1 turret-mounted Heavy Stubber or Storm Bolter, may also be equipped with a Hunter-Killer Launcher

Variants:

Combat Bike with Sidecar: Increase passengers by 1, add a Sponson-mounted Heavy weapon on the sidecar’s side of the vehicle
Arbites Rhino: Increase passengers by 10 (hull-mounted criminal racks),
Immolator Rhino: Replace Storm Bolter with Twin-Linked Heavy Flamers
‘Sanctis’-pattern Immolator: Replace Heavy Flamers with Twin-Linked Heavy Bolters
‘Justice’-pattern Immolator: Replace Heavy Flamers with Twin-Linked Multi-Meltas
Command Rhino: Add ‘Command and Control’ trait.

Plushy said:

1. There are many mentions of "Cargo 8" transports, presumably a truck in Abnett works. As I recall, there was a civilian vehicle model mock-up in the "Inquisitor" game, though for the life of me, I can;t find an example on the interweb.

I've always personally imagined that wealthier civilians on certain hive worlds had access to low-quality groundcars (which, for some reason, I always picture having a certain 40s-50s appearance, a bit like the Morris Minor or the Austin Ambassador) but other than Dan Abnett's works there's not a huge amount to support this.

2. Not that I've seen in the Canon…but I've repeatedly argued that GW need to pull their finger out and make one, as it would be a massive best seller!

www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Civilian_vehicles_in_40k One rather inspirational article. If I get bored I will try to compile all "minor" Imperial Guard Vehicles* mentioned in various BL novels (Destrier Gunships, Heracles Half-tracks, Usurper Self Propelled Guns, Hellbraker Howitzer…) with short description, would anybody care to do the rules?

Also I think there are several Humvee equivalents, most notable are Tauros Variants, but I swear that Caiphas Cain and Ibram Gaunt both used som other "jeep" …

***** I just saw it´s not Only War forum, wasn´t there a similiar thread?

Cain liked the Salamander command car I believe. did you check the only war beta forum?

Plushy said:

This is the one fact I can promise you is true; there is no one correct answer to your questions. I can only offer opinions. Also a disclaimer; when I say "Imperial world" I'm not just referring to the specific home world type listed in Dark Heresy, but Imperial-controlled worlds in general.

Q: What do normal people drive in the Imperium?

A: Nothing, unless it's their job to drive it.

I'd say with a high degree of conviction that civilian ownership of ground cars on a planetary scale is not a thing in the Imperium. Ground Cars are common, I have no doubt that they exist on most Imperial worlds and could be hired by the PC's cheaply, but the average Imperial Citizen would simply not have the means, skills, or even the right to own one. Anyway, I'll list my assumptions and move on.

• The average developed Imperial world seems to have extensive, affordable (or even free) public transport systems. This makes sense to me because the Administratum is concerned primarily with the Imperial Tithe on any given world, so productivity is not only important for an Imperial Governor, but vital to their long term success and survival. Details like safety and quality obviously vary from world to world, but getting between places where people have to work or sleep probably isn’t hard.
• Centralized public transport is easier for an organization like the Adeptus Mechanicus to maintain and supervise than a multitude of privately owned vehicles. The AdMech wouldn't care about running the grav-rail or whatever it is themselves, but they sure as hell wouldn't teach you how it works or how to fix it, that would be Tech-Heresy!
• For most citizens, knowing how to repair a ground car is probably Tech-Heresy.
• The average citizen won't have a great deal of time for recreation and very few rights or civil liberties, if any. In the real world, common reasons for an individual to have a car are for things like work needs, long distance travel, and because they provide you with the personal freedom to go where you want in a reasonable timeframe. In the Imperium, your work needs are met, and you probably won't even have the right to go out and experience the world to begin with.
• Ground Cars are expensive, Imperial citizens are poor and downtrodden. You may be trained and expected to operate a groundcar for a corporation, adepta or other master, but you're unlikely to ever be able to afford one of your own.
• Almost none of these rules apply to the Nobility, if you encounter a privately owned speeder, odds are it's owned by a Noble.

Q: Does the Imperial Guard have a Humvee equivalent?

Adeptus-B said:

The Sentinal does most of the kinds of work that a Humvee might be used for, but I'm pretty sure he's right, I've heard that name a number of times before, I also know a bit about the Tauros you mentioned. Links to the mini on Forge World below.

www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Elysian_Drop_Troops/ELYSIAN_TAUROS_ASSAULT_VEHICLE.html

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Elysian_Drop_Troops/ELYSIAN-TAUROS-VENATOR.html

I don't know if that has made it into a Codex yet, but it certainly looks like a pretty badass Humvee / ATV kinda thing. It only carries a few people, sure, less than a Humvee, but it certainly does the same job as a Humvee and looks way sturdier, I reckon. I kinda want one for my Inquisitorial cell now.

Anyway, hope my ramblings are in some way helpful.

Solarisjock said:

Salamanders are based of the Chimera hull and are classified as an open-topped scouting tank, just fYI. I seem to remember Cain saying he had a command pattern Salamander, though. That might be a little different, though I expect it would still be a light tank.

Plushy said:

In modern parlance, the Chimera is what we call an Infantry Fighting Vehicle, which is basically an APC with more guns on it. The difference between and APC and an IFV is that an APC such as a Rhino has a very light armament for self defence only, its job is to deliver infantry and then retreat. A Chimera is an IFV because its job is to deliver a full squad of infantry and then stick with that squad to give it more firepower and mobility.

In 40K terms, however, both are APC's.

TorogTarkdacil812 said:

Mate, that is awesome, I'm bookmarking that.

Azraiel said:

See, I disagree with a lot of this.

-In the Ravenor novels there are sequences where the characters fight in and around a major road, with what appear to be thousands of vehicles passing along it.

-In the same series of books a relatively lowly law enforcement officer has an elderly relative who is at best middle class who owns a powerful old groundcar.

-There are many references in the Enforcer series to extensive road networks.

-Whenever Gaunts Ghosts stop fighting on a halfway civilised Imperial world, they end up using staff cars, and in Blood Pact steal an old truck owned by a backwater undertaker.

I agree entirely that on most Imperial worlds, groundcar use is going to be very different to vehicle use enjoyed by modern westerners. But I think it's still relatively widespread on worlds that have the tech base and environment to support them. I'd exclude feral worlds from this, and a lot of hive worlds (either because space is limited in the habitable regions, or because the environment precludes their use) but on mid-tech and upwards frontier worlds, many hive worlds and many Imperial worlds, groundcar use would, I'd argue, be a fact of life for many citizens.

One concept that makes me think groundcars might be relatively common is the concept of "archprints." These are blueprints that the Adeptus Mechanicus effectively "franchises out" to local tech-guild on Imperial worlds in return for an enormous fee. These tech-guilds can then build and maintain licensed technology, within strict rules as to what they are allowed to manufacture. This concept appears in many Abnett novels, and actually hangs together as a concept beautifully. One can argue that the economy of hives like Gunmetal is likely based upon such licensed archprints.

OK, so up to now, I've been citing canon, but now let's extrapolate further, and take things off-canon for a moment.

-we know the Adeptus Mechanicus produces "archprints" and sells them to local tech-guilds

-let's say that the Adeptus Mechanicus produce archprints for a series of cheap and low-powered groundcar engines, and permits licence holders to coach build their own chassis.

-This would instantly create a huge potential variety of cars - but all of them would be powered by the same engine. Tampering with the holy form of that engine would be tech heresy… but maintenance and repair of that engine would be something that the local tech-guilds would be permitted to do by the Adeptus Mechanicus.

-So, depending upon the types of engine locals are permitted to make, you could end up with all kinds of weird and characterful vehicles. Like motorbikes powered by tractor engines. Or buses powered by bike engines. Or tractors converted into armoured vehicles. (Oh hang on - that does appear in the canon.)

-This means you have STC technology forming the basis of a variety of characterful and unpredictable local vehicles.

I know I've wandered off canon there…but i believe within plausible limits. Plus, rule of cool applies. Why restrict your players' access to car chases? Car chases are cool.

Lightbringer said:

Okay, before I drop the boring block of text; I love the rule of cool, and car chases are great. We've had car chases in our games of Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader and they were pretty frickin' sweet. Car chases are awesome, so have car chases, I say!

The sole point of my longwinded argument is that while groundcars are common, mainstream ownership of them by the civilian population seems highly incongruous to me. It isn't directly confirmed, denied or even commented on very often, even on a planet to planet basis. Because of that and the constant implications and references to abject poverty, I don't believe that Joe Citizen is likely to have one. Your points are all fine, reasonable and very plausible to me, not to mention the fact that the Imperium is a hugely diverse empire that really doesn’t give a crap about most of the things that happen on any of its worlds, provided their handful of well documented requirements are met.

Most developed worlds, according to the bulk of sources I'm familiar with (which doesn’t include the Enforcer series, incidentally), seem to support the loose rule that the average Imperial citizen is little better than an oppressed peon who may or may not even be literate. The entire planet he or she lives on is likely to be a dystopian craphole run by fascists, fascists who are contextually the good guys and serve the great and righteous space fascists who rule from Holy Terra, no less.

Most developed worlds are hive worlds as a direct result of Imperial control, or on their way to becoming hives, which are horrendously mismanaged, over-centralized and generally pretty horrible to live in for the majority of the populace (the "Accustomed to Crowds" rule hivers have in Dark Heresy springs to mind). I’m not saying that there can’t be or is not a large percentage of the million-and-more worlds of the Imperium where private ownership of a groundcar by an individual worker or family unit is at least theoretically possible, just that if its allowed, it's probably fairly expensive and may not even be a boon to them on account of the various inefficiencies in the system and general neglect of the authorities. And yet there are groundcars all over the place, even on worlds that clearly establish that the citizens are poor, uneducated, downtrodden illiterates who couldn't ever afford one. I have no idea who needs so many of ‘em, sometimes they’re just there even if that makes no **** sense.

But honestly, this is 40K; there are space chimps that make super compact weapons, laser guns that shoot bolts that travel at slower than the speed of light, nuclear weapons are considered almost comical as a means of attempting mass destruction, there's ludicrously over-engineered tech left, right and centre administered by people who pray to their toasters, spaceships that fly through hell to get to their destination quicker and *evil is a thing you can catch like some kind of disease*. I’m probably not even listing any of the really crazy stuff.

Just remember that in general, while the Imperium is hugely diverse and most developed worlds will be choking in groundcars, the basic rule for the common Imperial citizen is that love for the Emperor is mandatory, your "betters" exploit the hell out of you, life sucks and you’re **** lucky it doesn’t suck even more!

I would honestly bet on the Acolytes being able to legitimately acquire and use a groundcar on any of the core worlds at the very least, but if I had to name one Calixis Sector planet where pretty much anyone could own and keep a vehicle, I'd bet on it being Iocanthos; it's basically Mad Max planet, so pretty much anyone who had to leave Port Suffering would have to have rugged all-terrain cars to get places (not to mention be in theme!).

Since the Imperium is very Caste driven I think it would be more a matter of social class than simple monetary wealth. Using table 5-1 in DH (Pg. 124) gives us a fairly good idea. Personal vehicle ownership for citizens from the Outcast through military (Enlisted) class would be extremely rare! This group also makes up the bulk of the population on hive worlds. For members of the Supine class it would an occasional to rare event. For the learned classes and above such vehicles would become more and more common to the point where Mechanicus and nobility would probably even own or have access to some fairly High tech vehicles. If we think of a Hive as being something like Megacity one or bladerunner (They were what inspired them after all!) than there are plenty of personal vehicles flitting about. After all: If our Hive has a population of 800,000,000 and only 10% Own personal vehicles that's still over 80 million personal vehicles! That's a lotta cars! Most Census place the number of cars at approximately 240 million in the US! If we assume that many in a hive than you are still talking only about 30% personal ownership! Additionally, Even Mega city 1 only encompassed an area from Boston to Virginia along the Eastern US coast. Imagine stuffing all the vehicles in the US into that one area and you end up with some pretty hefty traffic jams!

TorogTarkdacil812 said:

thanks! I had a blast writing it.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Civilian_vehicles_in_40k

It's a bit long so my summary is vehicles in 40k will either be utilitarian or luxury. The private car we all love is virtually unknown since it offers people freedom and privacy and why would anyone want commoners to have that?

I'd love a list of BL vehicles to include in some form!

There are rumours that the next wave of space marine vehicles will include a light jeep/land rover analogue:-