AidenDouglass said:

This is well thought out and almost convinced me to switch positions. However as the poster below you said, it ambiguous enough that we need FFG to clarify what they exactly meant.

I'd say that if your expert at handling why couldn't you perform the standard Barrel roll and an Expert Handling Barrel Roll also, since they are not "Exactly" the same action.

I truly cannot see how anyone could think this subject is ambiguous. It's got me stumped.

Baphomet69 said:

It's ambiguous because there isn't a good definition of what constitutes an action for determining if actions provided by upgrade cards are the "same action" as actions in the action bar. Expert Handling provides an action that is almost, but not entirely, the same as the barrel roll action in the action bar. Even Marksmanship provides an action that is similar to focus (though different enough that this debate hasn't started for it). The ambiguous part: how similar do actions have to be in order for the game to consider them the same action?

@AidenDouglass

What then, is the ability provided by Marksmanship?

Is it some abstract thing that consumes an action, but is somehow different from an action?

Can it not be combined with Focus in the case of Vader (since nothing about Marksmanship is explicitly "Focus")?

Simply put, I think it is quite easy to agree that Marksmanship is indeed an upgrade card that provides an action. Therefore, there is precedent that upgrade cards can expand the action list of a pilot. Therefore, is not possible that Expert Handling is indeed a separate action added to a pilot's action list?

This is why this is considered such a murky area. I make no claim to have any answer, but it most certainly is up for debate.

Ok, I think we can say that the Markmanship card allows you to perform the Markmanship action, of which the instructions on how to do it is on the card.

The same way, we can say the the Expert Handling card allows you to perform the Expert Handling action, which says perform a barrel roll.

The [barrel roll] icon allows you to perform the barrel roll action.

According to the manual, under the barrel roll ([barrel roll] icon) entry; "to barrel roll, you must follow the steps 1 - 3" as listed in the manual.

The Expert Handling action, which says perform a barrel roll, does not mention a different way of doing a barrel roll. You are going to have to refer to the manual's "to barrel roll, follow these steps 1 - 3".

To expand the rulebook and the card:

Barrel roll action:

To barrel roll -

1. Take the maneuver..

2. Place one end against either left or right side…

3. Holding the template firmly..

Expert handling action:

action: Perform a barrel roll.

To barrel roll -

1. Take the maneuver..

2. Place one end against either left or right side…

3. Holding the template firmly..

If you do not have the [barrel roll] action icon add stress.

Remove a target lock.

Now if you did the barrel roll action, then you did the Expert Handling action, you just did the "to barrel roll, follow these steps 1 - 3" twice which means you just did the barrel roll action twice.

But the action provided by Expert Handling tells you to do more than just a barrel roll, we can agree on that much, right? As all of that is part of the single action provided, it is in fact a different action than a barrel roll. Similar to how a peanut butter and jelly sandwich is a different sandwich than a peanut butter sandwich.

But it still has peanut butter in it. If you are only allowed to eat one teaspoon of peanut butter per day you can only either choose the peanut butter sandwich or the peanut butter and jelly sandwich but not both.

Expert handling tells you to do three things, one after the other, hence the three sentences not commas. One of the three things is a barrel roll. I would say that Expert Handling can be considered a Barrel Roll +.

Edit: Now I'm hungry. Where's the peanut butter here…

ArcticSnake said:

And that is exactly why this one is ambiguous. What exactly is meant by "cannot preform the same action twice"? If you consider all parts of the action provided by Expert Handling, it is clearly not the same action as a barrel roll. However, the barrel roll action is clearly a sub-action for the greater action provided by Expert Handling. I'm inclined to believe that since it's entire actions that cannot be repeated (as opposed to sub-actions), the rules as currently written would allow you to use both in the same round. I also tend to expect that FFG will clarify/change the rule in such a way that it will not be allowed.

EH is not an Action, it's an ability card that allows you to perform a barrel roll Action.

For the people familiar with this topic, if you wouldn't mind reading over its entry in my FAQ I would appreciate it. I'd simply like to make sure I've summarized the issue correctly, and if you feel I've left out any important element of the discussion please let me know. This resource is for you and yours, after all. If you have any suggestions or amendments just drop them off on the Suggestions thread. Thanks.

Baphomet69 said:

It's an upgrade card that lets you perform an action yes. But if you read carefully you'll notice a few differences between its action and the barrel roll action.

If your ship has a [barrel roll] icon, the second sentence in Expert Handling does nothing. If your ship does not have an enemy Target Lock Icon, the third sentence does nothing.

So if Vader has no enemy Target Locks and he performed the Expert Handling's action, the only thing he can do is the perform a barrel roll part:

Me: "I wanna perform Vader's Expert Handling action."

Me doing the action:

Perform a barrel roll. (done. check.)

If your ship does not have a [barrel roll] action icon, receive a stress. (false. no effect.)

If your ship has an enemy target lock, remove it. (false. no effect.)

Can I still do the other barrel roll action?

EDIT: Sounds OP to me if I can… that's like allowing him a straight three movement to the side. I don't care if he is the best pilot in the galaxy, nobody should be allowed to barrel roll using a straight three maneuver template whilst moving an extra straight one forward or backward.

ArcticSnake said:

That depends on whether actions with different instructions having the same net effect count as the same action. I'd still call them different actions, even if the result was the same thing.

ArcticSnake said:

Taking your same line of thought

Me: "I wanna perform Vader's Expert Handling action."

Me (performing the maneuver of a barrel roll)

Check to see if my ship has the Icon of a barrel roll

If your ship does not have a [barrel roll] action icon, receive a stress. (false. no effect.)

If your ship has an enemy target lock, remove it. (false. no effect.)

Baphomet69 said:

If this is true, then what of Marksmanship? It's an upgrade card that provides an action…and that action, like EH, is a suped-up version of Focus, but only when used for attack. So if Vadar takes Marksmanship, and uses the action from the upgrade card, is he prevented from also taking a focus action? The end result can be the same, even if the execution is not identical.

My read of the rules is literal: You cannot perform the same Action twice in a game turn. Barrel Roll (icon) is an action. Expert Handling is an upgrade that provides an Action…and that Action it NOT to perform the Barrel Roll Action. If it were, it would state "Action: Perform a (Barrel Roll Icon). If you do not have the (barrel roll icon), receive 1 stress token. You may then remove 1 target lock token from your ship."

Note that while Vadar cannot perform two Barrel Roll Actions, he can perform a Barrel Roll Action and Action: Expert Handling. So, in the case that Vadar has two Target Lock tokens on him, he can perform Action: Expert Handling, and remove 1, and then his second action can be (Barrel Roll Icon) Action, which does not remove the second Target Lock token….but may allow him to roll out of a firing arc.

kingbobb said:

Marksmanship: "Action: When attacking this round, you may change 1 of your (eye icon) results to a (critical icon) result and all of your other (eye icon) results to (hit) results." - it does NOT say 'perform a Focus Action' - your action for the round is 'Marksmanship', not Focus. If you have access to two Actions, you can still perform a Focus action as #2, presumably to use in defense.

Expert Handling: "Perform a barrel roll (a known and defined action). If you do not have the (barrel roll icon) action icon, receive one stress token. You may then remove 1 enemy target lock from your ship." - This Ability Card DOES say 'perform a barrel roll (action)' - Your action this round is a barrel roll action, as modified by 'Expert Handling'. If you have access to two Actions, #2 CANNOT be a barrel roll, as you've already performed that Action.

Marksmanship's action is SIMILAR TO a focus Action, but it does NOT say to perform a Focus Action. Expert Handling DOES tell you to perform a barrel roll (action - it doesn't say action, but barrel roll s already established as an action and nothing else), then modify it by the text that follows.

At this point I can only assume anyone still arguing this point is deliberately trying to be difficult for some reason. Logic isn't malleable.

Baphomet69 said:

You seem to be ignoring the rest of the text of Expert Handling's action. The barrel roll is part of it's action, but not the entire action. However, choosing the barrel roll action gives you a barrel roll and nothing else. While similar, those are two different things, no? And the rule is that no action can be performed twice, not that no effect of an action can be performed twice. The action from Expert Handling is a different action from the barrel roll in the action bar if for no other reason than it does something different.

dbmeboy said:

I'm not ignoring anything. I quoted the entire card. As I state above, your ACTION is a barrel roll, the EFFECT of which is then modified be Expert Handling. It is still a barrel roll Action, modified or not. The ACTION is a barrel roll, the EFFECT (provided by Expert Handling) modifies the ACTION. The Action is still barrel roll and cannot be performed twice.

Baphomet69 said:

Quite simply, that is false. The action is everything that follows the "ACTION:" on the Expert Handling card. If Expert Handling was going to modify a barrel roll instead of provide an action, it would be written as a constant modifier (like R2 Unit) instead. So the ACTION is [barrel Roll AND Stress Token if doesn't have {barrel roll} icon AND remove target lock if has one] which is a different ACTION than [barrel Roll] even though the effect is very similar (and the same if Vader is using it and there are no target locks).

Baphomet69 said:

The card does not say "perform a barrel roll (action)". It says " Action : Perform a barrel roll." In the Core rules, whenever the game refers to an Action, it changes the font of the word. But on page 8, in the Barrel Roll (action) section, you'll note that it also says "To barrel roll, follow these steps:" Note the specific lack of font change. To me, this signifies that the game differentiates between an Action (Barrel Roll (action)) and the effect of the Action (perform a barrel roll).

Finally, how can you claim that Action:…on Marksmanship creates a Marksmanship Action, but then conclude that the Action:… on Expert Handling does not also create it's own action distinct from Barrel Roll (Action)? That creates a mechanical inconsistency between the cards.

a kingbobb said:

If you look at page 28, under List of Actions, you would see:

Barrel Roll: Take the [straight 1] template and move sideways (either left or right), facing the same direction.

When Expert Handling told you to "Perform a barrel roll" it told you to perform the barrel roll action because as defined in page 28, barrel roll by itself is an action and does not need to be constantly referred to as a barrel roll action

Were you to argue that maybe the Capitalization differentiates Barrel Roll (page 28) and barrel roll, take a look at the Barrel Roll Example:

"Academy Pilot performs a barrel roll action,…" (note the lack of caps) then continues to do a barrel roll as defined by "To barrel roll" to its left which is the same as "Barrel Roll" page 28.

In Mathematics, if "a" is equivalent to "b" and "b" is equivalent to "A" , then that is proof enough to say that "a" is equivalent to "A"

As mentioned earlier in this thread, a "barrel roll" (Expert Handling, "To barrel roll") is a "Barrel Roll" (page 28) is a "barrel roll action" (Barrel Roll Example) is a "Barrel Roll action" (Under Barrel Roll [barrel roll icon])

Might I also point out that "Perform a car theft action" and "Perform a car theft. If it is a cheap car you lose reputation. Receive reward money from your fence" might look different to you, but if you get caught, you are still going to be charged grand theft auto because you still stole a car regardless of what you did afterwards. If the law does not differentiate between the two examples above, why is it so different with the barrel rolls?

ArcticSnake said:

The only thing I find persuasive is the Academy pilot action example. It does create an inconsistency. Page 28 is a Quick Reference tool, and not something I would look to for a deeper explanation of how the rules and card abilities interact.

What remains is that Marksmanship creates a new action that is not included on any of the list of actions. If Marksmanship can create a new Ability, why does Expert Handling get shoe-horned into the existing rules when the effect it creates exceed that of the Barrel Roll Action? Also, if we are to read Expert Handling as being the same as the Barrel Roll Action, then the card basically says: "Action: Make a Barrel Roll Action." Does that mean that ONLY Vadar can take Expert Handling, because he's the only pilot currently able to take 2 actions?

Surely not, as both my Luke and Wedge take it to great effect.. Barrel rolling every turn.. Just don't forget to take R2 astromechs with you.

To wit: Move using any speed 2 or speed 1 maneuver > remove stress > do a barrel roll > gain stress > repeat next turn.

Also, by disregarding page 28, I think you are committing a logical fallacy.. like begging the question or something..

Okay, I used to be staunchly on the only-one-barrel-roll-per-round-whether-it's-Expert-Handling-or-not team, but my faith has been shaken as I considered "Dutch" Vander's ability. His ability states,

"After acquiring a target lock, choose another friendly ship at Range 1-2. The chosen ship may immediately acquire a target lock."

Although "acquire a target lock" is an action (as listed in the rules), I do not believe that the ally ship in this case is performing an "acquire a target lock" action. He simply gets the benefit of that action. This has caused me to believe that you can, indeed barrel roll and then use Expert Handling to barrel roll again.

(If you disagree about "Dutch", I'm sure that's been brought up in another thread and we can discuss that there.)

ArcticSnake said:

I don't think anyone is disregarding page 28, we're just saying that Expert Handling provides an action that is different than a barrel roll. And there's no real application of the transitive property that you attempted to invoke in your previous post, but if you want to use math-like equations:

Let Barrel Roll = A

Let Expert Handling's action = B

B = A + C (where C is the other stuff Expert Handling's action lets you do)

Let's assume A = B --> A = A+C --> C= 0

However, C =/= 0, therefore assumption A = B is false.