"Dissension: Marshalling: Choose and discard from play 1 Ally or Mercenary character, or up to 2 Refugee characters."
I play Dissension. Can I choose to discard nothing, by selecting up to 2 refugees, and then selecting "0" as the number of refugees I wish to discard?
jmccarthy said:
"Dissension: Marshalling: Choose and discard from play 1 Ally or Mercenary character, or up to 2 Refugee characters."
I play Dissension. Can I choose to discard nothing, by selecting up to 2 refugees, and then selecting "0" as the number of refugees I wish to discard?
I think so, but I can't find anything either for or against that interpretation in the FAQ.
Although im hard pressed to think why you would want to do this, outside of thinning your hand for an effect like 'rule by decree', you CANNOT play an event that has a target if there is no valid target.
The faq has a section that answers this directly, under the events card section.
If you do not have a valid target for an event, you may not play that event. Not all events have a target.[/Quote]
The game knows it has a target because it uses the word choose.
Its mostly simple but some cards have very 'strange' interaction given the wording, an example being KL Eddard stark not being able to use his cancel on the lannisters version of the iron throne as the iron throne does not 'choose' a target.
Hope this helps, its always a good idea to have a copy of the faq close to hand as it usually helps a great deal (sometimes it gets you going in circles though)
To expand and truly apply Underworld's answer to this specific situation, you can use Dissension to discard 0 Refugees, but only if there is at least one Refugee on the table to (not) be chosen.
If you are going to make the "choose 0 Refugee characters" argument and say that 0 is part of "up to," you run into the fact that "nil" has been defined (through the "printed" entry in the FAQ) to be different from 0. So, if you are going to say that "0 is a number included in 'up to 2'," you have to follow the rule that "nil" is not a number.
That means you can play Dissension during the Marshalling phase and choose 0 as the number of refugees to discard - provided that there is an identifiable set of "Refugee characters" to choose from.
Excellent. Val + Dissension then gives me a way out of discarding my characters, provided I have a refugee lying around.
I'm not sure I get that. Do you mean that if you pull a Dissension with Val, you can mitigate the damages and avoid discarding your own Ally, provided you have a Refugee on the table?
That is what he is hoping this means, yes.
ktom said:
To expand and truly apply Underworld's answer to this specific situation, you can use Dissension to discard 0 Refugees, but only if there is at least one Refugee on the table to (not) be chosen.
If you are going to make the "choose 0 Refugee characters" argument and say that 0 is part of "up to," you run into the fact that "nil" has been defined (through the "printed" entry in the FAQ) to be different from 0. So, if you are going to say that "0 is a number included in 'up to 2'," you have to follow the rule that "nil" is not a number.
That means you can play Dissension during the Marshalling phase and choose 0 as the number of refugees to discard - provided that there is an identifiable set of "Refugee characters" to choose from.
ktom said:
I'm not sure I get that. Do you mean that if you pull a Dissension with Val, you can mitigate the damages and avoid discarding your own Ally, provided you have a Refugee on the table?
Yes. I love running Val and Dissension together, so its not a wasted event. What if I have a Mercenary on table, but no refugee. I use Val, and I am compelled to play Dissension, which now has a legal target. Can I choose "up to 0 refugees," since I had a valid target to play the event?
If there is no refugee on the board, then I don't think refugee would be a valid target. And since you must play the card you drew, and since it doesn't say upto 1 Merc - you will have to discard the merc. That's the way I read it anyways.
Slothgodfather said:
If there is no refugee on the board, then I don't think refugee would be a valid target. And since you must play the card you drew, and since it doesn't say upto 1 Merc - you will have to discard the merc. That's the way I read it anyways.
I've asked FFG about this and this is correct.
They say, when the card is revealed with Val:
"If there are no Refugee characters in play, but there is an ally/merc, you must choose the ally/merc.
If there are 1 or more Refugees, or both Refugees and an Ally/merc, you can choose "0 Refugees" as a choice.
If there are no Refugees and no Allies in play, the card cannot be played, and would just be discarded."
jmccarthy said:
The "up to 2" only applies to targets with the Refugee trait. Having a target with the Ally or Mercenary trait does not satisfy the basic target requirement for the "up to 2" part - the Refugee trait.
So no, you cannot invoke the "up to 2 Refugees" target option for the event unless there is actually a Refugee card on the table. Being able to satisfy the alternate target option (exactly 1 Ally or Mercenary) does not give you access to the "up to 2 Refugees" option.
Or, look at it this way: I have 3 influence on the table and no Holy characters. I want to play Confession. Does the presence of the 3 influence let me invoke the alternate cost option and kneel the non-existent Holy character instead? Of course not. Similarly, the presence of a Mercenary does not let me invoke the alternate target option and choose "up to 2" non-existent Refugees instead.