So my players want to play a deathwatch campaign, but want to play without being in the Deathwatch. They would like to all be from the same chapter, and I would like for them to start as scouts and work their way up. There are a couple of areas I'd like to get some advice and suggestions about:

First, is there already a resource that I can access that has this idea already worked out? Failing that…

The DW Rulebook is designed so that characters start out as vet marines in the Deathwatch. I would like to eventually use the DW advancement tables, but not until after they've gone up some ranks as non-vet marines. I was considering doing this by scaling back skills, talents, and characteristics that characters start with, and adding them into a table for scout advancement. Does anyone have input on this area?

What I'm not sure about here is what should I do after scouts, but before vets? I've always thought that the DW starting character package better represents a "normal" marine better than a 200-year-old combat veteran. <rant>Also, It's apparent that either the British combat forces operate very differently than US ones, and/or Matt Ward has no fing idea how introducing new soldiers to these units works. According to C:SM, marines graduate from Scouts, to Devastator, Assault, then Tactical squads. This makes no sense to me, as when I was in the 82nd for 8 years, we always went from trainees to (equivalently) Tactical, then we'd either stay in Tactical Squads, or go to Devastator or Assault squads respective of our aptitude in any capacity. With that being said, I'm changing the fluff in my campaign.</rant> I was considering here, allowing access from all of the rank 1 advancements (and maybe 2) for all specializations, excluding some of the librarian and techmarine advancements. This would be as if marines are not, in fact, elite or specialized until after rank 2 (and thus would be ineligible for DW or 1st company service until this point), and that they are introduced to all capacities of the combat roles before rank 2. After rank 2, they would be required to "specialize" and would be restricted to choosing advances from their specialization from rank 3 on. I'd have to figure out what the characteristic advancement table would be for this level. Any foreseeable complications I've overlooked?

Another possibility for handling the in-between ranks would be to just call the specializations something different. It would be more like a combat style preference, not the position that they fill in squads, for instance, Tactical would become "Leader", Devastator would become "Heavy", Assault would become "Melee" and so forth. This would kill 2 birds with one stone. I wouldn't have to develop a characteristic advancement table for general marine ranks 1 and 2, and I wouldn't have to explain why an Assault Marine is in a Tactical Squad, or a Tactical Marine is in an Assault Squad. Thoughts?

The floor is yours.

Certainly, make sure you have Honour the Chapter for the Codex Chapter stuff. I don't know exactly how I would start marines that are below Deathwatch skill level. I would consider bringing the overall stat line down ever so slightly (let's not get too crazy here). Also, the deathwatch stuff you get for being in the deathwatch would be gone. I would take out the DW advancement chart. I would start them off without any benefit from DW Specializations and then have them do a mission or two. Maybe start them with most of their stats the same and make the earn their stat advancements as exp rewards. I would make sure that, by the time you are ready to make them equivalent to Deathwatch Rank 1, I would have their stats be the same as DW starting stats and then have them earn their way into one of the specializations. That way, you hand off your non-veteran marines into veteran marine leveling (advancing through the Deathwatch specializations normally). Having them earn stat boosts would be a tasteful way for them to evolve into the different specializations.

I think those are good ideas. Sounds like we're on the same page. I would love to get HofC, but haven't been able to find any hardbacks in local stores. So how would you feel about assuming that deathwatch marine level characters are further into the xp charts, like rank 3-4?

Also for the stat upgrades, I would have them start out with only +10-15 instead of +30, and allow them to buy up to the normal starting point by the time they graduate from the scouts.

GrandmasterRay said:

As I see it, most of the problems people have with that progression comes from a basic and mistaken assumption that the Tactical Marine is a "generic grunt" Space Marine. Then, having boiled everything down to the bare minimum to point out how ridiculous it seems, it ends up perpetuating those mistaken assumptions. It isn't, to my knowledge, meant to mimic any contemporary or historical military force.

After receiving the majority of his implants and basic training, an Astartes Scout will be placed in the field under the leadership of an experienced Sergeant to be given limited on-the-job training - limited skirmishes, covert actions and preparatory missions. This training covers handling of a variety of Astartes weapons, exposure to chapter-specific doctrines and ciphers, and the operation of light Astartes vehicles (Bikes and Land Speeders).

Upon completion of several years service as a Scout, the young Space Marine will be granted the Black Carapace, and inducted into the Chapter proper. The first and simplest role for them to fulfil is a supporting one within a Devastator Squad within the Chapter's 9th Company (Devastator, Reserve) - initially armed with a Bolter, and studying the use of the full range of heavy weapons employed by the Astartes. By the culmination of this stage of their training, the Battle-Brother will be fully-versed in all Astartes-issue heavy weaponry and the accompanying doctrines and stratagems that define their use.

The next stage is time within the Assault Squads of the 8th Company (Assault, Reserve). Having been given the opportunity for extended combat experience, the Battle-Brother is well-used to combat (Astartes style) by this point, and will be given extended training in close quarters combat, use of Jump Packs, Bikes and Land Speeders. By the culmination of this stage of their training, the Battle-Brother will have a full working knowledge of Astartes assault doctrine, as well as practical close combat experience.

It is the combination of this knowledge that defines a Tactical Marine, so the next stage is to progress from the Assault Reserve Company to the 6th and 7th Tactical Companies - expanding upon the experience, doctrinal knowledge, and practical expertise of those Space Marines. The 6th Company is capable of full mobilisation on Bikes, while the 7th can do likewise with Land Speeders, expanding upon training received as a Scout and in the 8th Company. This also covers cross-training with the Chapter Armoury.

By the time a Battle Brother has served in all the Reserve Companies, he will be expected to be fully conversant in every aspect of Astartes combat doctrine as defined by the Codex Astartes. Every weapon and every vehicle in use by the Adeptus Astartes, a vast range of tactical and strategic wisdom committed to memory, centuries of military history and everything else that a Space Marine needs to know.

At this point, the Battle Brother gets a choice as he enters the Battle Companies. Many remain as Tactical Marines, serving as the flexible heart of any strike force. Some return to Assault Squads or Devastator Squads, to make the best use of their particular skills. In any case, the Astartes in a Battle Company are fully-trained to be able to fill any battlefield role demanded of them by circumstances. Every single one of them has the knowledge, skill and baseline capabilities necessary to adapt seamlessly to the changing tides of battle upon their own initiative, thanks to years of intensive training, hypno-indoctrination and field experience. They have not only been taught to fight, but how to wage war… and that is what distinguishes Astartes from conventional forces. Their short chain of command, the rapid pace of Astartes operations and their leaders' inclination to lead from the front necessitates that every Battle Brother have the ability to make their own informed decisions quickly and effectively. As the heart of any Astartes force, this means that the Tactical Marine needs to be flexible, adaptable and exceptionally well-trained.

The reason the Army does this is not because "that's the way it is". It does this because the line squads are general purpose, and a soldier will be introduced to the other types of squads by functioning in a line squad capacity. We do it this way because it makes sense. What experience does a marine with a bolter get by watching missile launchers shoot tanks while he sits on a rock and listens to an old Sergeant talk about the good-old-days? He could learn this knowledge procedures by reading a procedural manual. That's a very different type of knowledge than experience. But we digress…

What are some good ideas to actually facilitate the ideas of the fluff that I'll have in my campaign?

I'm thinking the best way to handle the non-vet period is to adjust the point that they are considered vets, rather than creating new tables to cover the in-between rank. That would be a lot less cumbersome. Also, since the normal rules give almost all of the rank 1 general advancements to starting marines, I'll just consider all of the rank 1 tables to be "Scout" tables. So the rank 1 tables (across all specialties) will be Scout tables, rank 2 (and maybe 3) will be the 15-25 years or so that they will be experiencing the tactical, devastator, and assault service, and then they will be Sergeants/Vets after that. Also concerning the talents, skills, and solo/squad abilities acquired by choosing a specialty, They will all receive the talents and skills given by the specialty (regardless of chosen specialty, discounting some from librarian, tech-marine, and apothecary) upon entry into that specialty service. For instance, all of the PCs will receive pilot(personal) and swift attack upon entry into a assault squad. The Solo and squad abilities for the specialization won't be unlocked until the receive veteran status.

Thoughts about the meta?

We my fluff easier to accepts by just saying the chapter that the marines are in do it the way I described.

GrandmasterRay said:

And with all due respect to your service and the service of all those in any nation's armed forces, you aren't a Space Marine.

We're dealing with the elite, genetically-enhanced special forces, whose combat doctrine, training methods and so forth were defined over millennia.

The Adeptus Astartes, in my opinion, don't need basic line infantry. Their role does not, and has never, required unspecialised riflemen in that way. It's certainly a method that is applicable to the Imperial Guard (a force which, depending on the given regiment, is analogous to contemporary and historical armed forces from the 19th and 20th centuries).

I've seen countless arguments over the years that the Space Marines - the way they're described in the background - can't function as a proper military force. I've seen plenty of reasons for this, but the majority of them seem to boil down to a basic assumption that equates Space Marines to contemporary armed forces. I personally regard that assumption as inherently flawed - the Space Marines have a colossal range of advantages over normal human soldiers, and those differences will have significant impact upon the way that Space Marines operate.

I regard it as utterly necessary for the Astartes to operate the way they do that Tactical Marines be experts at warfare, extensively and rigorously trained in every discipline, technique and tool employed by his Chapter. I can't see them being anywhere near as effective if the central element of any Astartes task force lacks that breadth and depth of expertise - expertise gained through a combination of diverse field experience, in-depth hypno-indoctrination and extensive study of the theory of warfare (defined within individual Chapter doctrines and the Codex Astartes alike, aided by the fact that the Astartes have eidetic memories). If anything, the 'basic rifleman' of the Adeptus Astartes is the bolter-armed Marine in the Devastator squads (remember, Devastator Squads are 10-strong with 4 heavy weapons by default in the Codex Astartes… this isn't just to provide a few extra warm bodies to soak up enemy fire, and while most wargamers are inclined to use them as such, that's more a flaw with the game's rules than an appropriate depiction. Those other Marines are there for a reason).

GrandmasterRay said:

We do, but I feel that it's a necessary digression when considering the nature and purpose of a Space Marine within the context of his Chapter. The 'why' of a Space Marine will have a significant impact upon the 'who' and the 'how', and it's relevant even when dealing with Chapters that differ from the Codex (such as the Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Black Templars), because understanding the differences helps understand elements of the character of those Chapters.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I suspect that this is a problem with the conversion between Tabletop and RPG/Black Library/Fluff. While fluffwise the Astartes don't need or use basic line infantry, in Tabletop they most certainly do, and that's exactly what Tactical Marines are *for*.

With reference to the original post, I agree that the starting Deathwatch package is more suitable for a relatively fresh Marine than for a 200 year old veteran anyway, so I don't think you really need anything to "bridge the gap" (our current Deathwatch game is running exactly as you describe, with us all playing members of the Imperial Fists, but we haven't changed the rules at all because to be honest there didn't seem much point).

Space Marines are the guys you call when the **** hits the fan. They are elite, like Navy Seals of the future, and as No1 said they don't really have "basic riflemen" as much as highly trained forces have "basic riflemen". A barkeater in the Army isn't the same caliber as a typical member of the Seals. Astartes come screaming down in their rocket eggs, pure shock and awe, beat the living pulp out of the bad guy, then fly away. They're actually pretty lousy at holding a point because of their relatively low numbers and the eventual adaptation of the enemy. They're meant to pound a planet into submission to allow a Guard force to come in an entrench themselves (because if there's one thing the Guard is good at it's being a pain in the ass for anyone trying to unseat them), they are not a traditional standing army by any measure.

Yeah, in 40k tabletop a Tac Marine is your basic troop, but this is because the tabletop is an ABSTRACT wargame that follows simple but specific balance rules. So things like "force organization" are used to make sure that your force isn't composed of pure Dreadnoughts or whatever, but in reality a Tactical Marine is a thematic "Elite Choice" compared to your average Guardsman. That's why a Marine is hand over fist better than a Guardsman with superior armor and weaponry despite being "baseline" for Space Marine standards, but also why he's FAR more expensive. If you want to be technical, a Space Marine list shouldn't have "troop choices" beyond Scouts and Tactical Marines should be Elites right alongside Terminators (just the latter is more elite than the former), but that doesn't really fit into the abstraction of the tabletop game so concessions are made for the same of gameplay and ensuring forces fit roughly the theme of the army. To stress again, the tabletop is just an abstraction, much like how Flames of War is abstract and doesn't really represent the realism of WWII. This is why scale is so off, why combat is so stilted and many complain isn't how a "real" fight would go down, because at it's heart it's not a simulation, it's abstraction.