H.B.M.C. said:

This is a roleplaying game. Ignoring minor mechanical crunch issues is pretty unlikely to happen because that would be entirely too reasonable of an approach. Instead we should expect to see a cyber-hemorrhoidal flare-up of 11th-degree hurt!

But we can hope for better…

H.B.M.C. said:

Well, I think most of use were hoping they didn't represent a smoking pile of scrap.

Pretty much, yes.

It's nice to be told not to worry. It's not quite as nice to see the character's ancestral weapon go up in a rain of sparks and parts, which is what the rules pretty much dictate. Assuming one successful parry per round, a Legacy weapon survives a little less than one minute of combat against a power weapon.

Cifer said:

I wasn't suggesting that you not use your shiny chainaxe. I was suggesting you go on an epic quest to turn it into a power chainaxe. It might be difficult to do but that is why it is an epic quest. Also just so you aren't thinking I'm totally crazy: the spacewolves use power chain weapons caled frostblades and frost axes. They appear in deathwatch.

Another solution to the legacy vs power weapon fight is to encourage proving your martial superiority by disarming your opponent before decapitating them… then parry thier fists or other non-power alternative… assuming you don't just kill them while they try to retrieve thier shiny sword. There are plenty of solutions to working around it.

Another solution is to dodge power weapons instead of parrying them. No one says you have to parry. Sure you won't get those cool counter attacks in, but your weapon isn't broken. And will you really be neglecting dodge just cause you like melee? You can't parry bolter rounds, and agility decides movement and likely initiative so you probably aren't neglecting it, so dodge should work just fine. You might still have to worry about them parrying you, but you will have doubled the lifespan of your weapon. Then you can pick up that nifty talent (killing strike, tier 2) that lets you spend an infamy point to make your attack unavoidable. then your weapon is safe from the nasty powerfield.

You could also just take the hit, make the elevation test and shoot the guy with your back-up inferno pistol (or other suitable weapon). Personally I am a fan of lighting them on fire too, as it is hard to parry me while they are trying to put themselves out.

Be creative. There are plenty of ways around the problem with out saying the rules are faulty. If I was your GM I would happily destroy your legacy weapon if you couldn't come up with some other way to get around it, and insisted on specifically parrying the power weapon with something that couldn't take it.

Personally I think that making legacy weapons automatically ignore powerfields would mostly reduce power weapons down to a meh-whatever-who-cares level of mediocrity that they should never fall to. No one should ever see a badguy wielding a powersword and think, "Oh, I'll be alright, I have my dad's old pocket knife, it can block a power sword, no problem!"

The problem is not so much about not being able to parry - there's always the dodge option or taking it on the chin. The problem rests with the idea that the defense of a character with a power weapon can destroy your ****. Sure, there's always ranged combat, but it sends characters without power legacy weapons down to the kiddy pool in terms of what fights they can participate in. You will never be able to duel an enemy with a power weapon. They're just out of your weight class. If you try to use another weapon to compensate, your weapon gets angry and might depower itself.

See my above reply. But if you dont want to read it here is the summary:

Disarm ftw, dodge+killing strike ftw

I'm curious about what everyone thinks of the mass combat rules. I've only read them once, but they seem much better than the ones from Battlefleet Koronus.

If you dual-wield the legacy weapon, is it acceptable to use one or the other, or must it always be exactly as a pair?

Like, for example, if using an Accurate weapon that you need to single-shot that round.

Or can the dual-wielding be done with any weapon no problem so long as the other is your Legacy?

I presume that if you've got Furious Assault, then you can make two All Out Attacks with bonecrusher to hit everyone in 2m, amirite?

That appears to be the case.

@CryHavok

Another solution is to dodge power weapons instead of parrying them. No one says you have to parry. Sure you won't get those cool counter attacks in, but your weapon isn't broken. And will you really be neglecting dodge just cause you like melee? You can't parry bolter rounds, and agility decides movement and likely initiative so you probably aren't neglecting it, so dodge should work just fine. You might still have to worry about them parrying you, but you will have doubled the lifespan of your weapon. Then you can pick up that nifty talent (killing strike, tier 2) that lets you spend an infamy point to make your attack unavoidable. then your weapon is safe from the nasty powerfield.

Take a look at the alignment of Dodge. And Killing Strike, as you noted, costs an Infamy Point for every single strike.

Be creative. There are plenty of ways around the problem with out saying the rules are faulty. If I was your GM I would happily destroy your legacy weapon if you couldn't come up with some other way to get around it, and insisted on specifically parrying the power weapon with something that couldn't take it.

Personally I think that making legacy weapons automatically ignore powerfields would mostly reduce power weapons down to a meh-whatever-who-cares level of mediocrity that they should never fall to. No one should ever see a badguy wielding a powersword and think, "Oh, I'll be alright, I have my dad's old pocket knife, it can block a power sword, no problem!"

The funny thing is everyone will think just that in the latter stages of the game, because there's no reason not to switch to a power weapon yourself once you can obtain it. No reason unless you like the idea of your character thinking of his weapons as more than a set of stats, that is.

I realize there are solutions to the problem, albeit ugly and expensive ones. What I don't get is how the very character type that defines itself by its weapon can be so disadvantaged in the situation where you expect it to shine. "Oh, our enemy has a martial champion! Let's get our Khornate to face him, he's the only one who has a chance to beat him - and Barbaroth is itching for the Corruption points anyway."-"Nah, the enemy has a power weapon and stupid Barbaroth still insists on lugging his chainaxe around. Just don't tell our berserker and I'll try to snipe the champion. Best for all involved."

If you arent taking dodge, I would be wotried about other things than your weapon breaking. Also, you can still disarm them, or grapple them.

And really the people who actually seek out a superior weapon should actually have a superior weapon.

Cifer said:

Yes it costs an infamy point, but how many unavoidable hits do you think it is gonna take? If you are afraid taking any advances not of your chosen alignment then I don't know what to tell you other than that your character is going to have huge gaping weaknesses, regardless of what alignment you are.

Cifer said:

Seems we have opposing views here. Yours seems to be that legacy weapons should be giving everyone a reason to use stuff other than power weapons. Mine on the other hand, is that someone who is impatient and just elevates the first weapon they find to legacy status, should suffer the consequences of thier impatience. By the same token those who are patient and wait to get the weapon the really want, are rewarded when they elevate it to legacy weapon status.

Personally I think that the ability to, at character creation, make your weapon invulnerable to power weapons, would be ridiculous. As it stands, it is a 15% increase in its survivability. It is better than it was before.

Cifer said:

wow editing that last post made it weird.

Cryhavok said:

Given that you can already get a power, force, or rune weapon at character creation, I don't see how this is an issue.

Terraneaux said:

It's not an issue, because you can't actually do what I said would be ridiculous (unless house ruled otherwise). My opinion is that the rules on legacy weapons, as far as interaction with powerfields go, is that they are good as is. My issue is with the idea that being famous and having a history should in any way grant inherent invulnerability to damage. It would also deny the chance for the epic reforging quest, a staple in many fictional stories. If they want a weapon that is invulnerable to powerfields, they should use one.

Oh and here is another solution for you, elevate your legacy weapon in a set, with your fist. Powerfields don't effect fists. Then take the unarmed talents to augment your abilities. Parry with your fists to your hearts content… although I still favor the disarming method.

My issue is with the idea that being famous and having a history should in any way grant inherent invulnerability to damage.

Well, why should being famous and having a history grant any benefit at all? I'm fairly sure no weapon in history got any better from the point it was forged.

It would also deny the chance for the epic reforging quest, a staple in many fictional stories.

I wouldn't have a problem with an epic reforging quest. Ten epic reforging quests, on the other hand…

Indeed, I think we're approaching Legacy Weapons from two very different starting points here. You say "Don't elevate any old junk", I say "Being able to elevate any old junk, aka the heirloom, to a weapon that can hold its own is the point of the rules - and indeed you are punished for choosing a power weapon as a Legacy Weapon". You say "You can evade power weapon abilities using this and that costly trick", I say "The character type that commonly chooses a Legacy Weapon is the one that shouldn't need any additional tricks compared to your regular renegade who just picks up a power weapon at character creation". It appears best to agree to disagree.

We most certainly can agree to disagree

I didnt consider most of my solutions costly, but oh well.

I am curious though, what weapons are people elevating, or planning on elevatimg? Personally I plan on elevating a plasma pistol and a bolt pistol.

Rune Sickle Sword and Rune Force Kursian Heavy Shield.

My BS focused chosen was considering your set up, but I decided to stick with my trusty HB. A maximium of 5 hits on a 50 roll, with felling 4, was just too good to pass up. Say goodbye to 'crons!

I've always had a problem with parrying unarmed in games, or being parried when unarmed. In most Star Wars systems for example, if you parry someone's fist with your lightsaber, not only do they avoid a Luke or Vader moment, they don't so much as take a little burn. I can understand someone parrying a power-weapon [not the lack of penalty though] with their hands; grabbing the other's arms or at least the handle, but damnit, if I block someone's foot with a stormfielded burning blade, I'd like to at least see them catch fire.

Perhaps if there was more value to the non-power weapons it wouldn't be an inverse curve of how-common-its-equipped vs rarity, the lower break chance would be more of a big deal?

Gotta ask again, though: If you've got a weapon set as your Legacy, do you have to always fire both together, or is one at a time, or at least, alternating to aim with an accurate one while the other one recharges perfectly acceptable?

Kiton said:

I agree

Kiton said:

Personally, I would rule that you can fire them any which way, unless otherwise restricted by the rules. As the rules don't mention any such restriction, I would not put one on my players.

Considering how the point of such a set would be having a certain amount of versatility, I'd say you're allowed to use whichever weapon fits the situation. If you got yourself a bolter and a melta, presumably you could use the bolt pistol for long range while cooking your heavy targets in near-melee.

As for my own… my Q'sal Sorcerer might elevate his force staff, if he ever develops much of a connection to it - it's not like he has much of a use for any other weapon.

My renegade sniper (consider him a ranged version of Victor Zsasz) would definitely elevate the rifle through which he shares his most intimate moments with his playmates. The Artful Pattern seems almost tailormade for him - Backstabber, Better Part of Valor, Fast, Precise and Subtle are all pretty nice. I'm still pondering whether its history is Betrayal, Conquest or Excess, though.

I still want to see a completely baller psyker use an autogun with a belt feed and legacy of rage with the artful ability to add his psy rating to damage on that rof 13 weapon. Even better if he's Tzeentch aligned and it's a slayer limb and therefore ignores armor.