2 very good posts captain poe- i agree with the gollum subject, however id like to use that in explaining why glorfindel would have been bad for the company.

say he had joined gandalf and took down another balrog- then gandalf would never have fell, and never have returned more powerful….so it oculd be argued gandalf falling was just as important to the destruction of the ring (and the saving of gondor and rohan) as anything else

again as you say with gollum- a negative has positive consequences…..and this all comes back to gandalf saying that gollum still had his part to play in the events of the ring- basically once a ring bearer, always a ringbearer….and while a ringbearer still lives they are intwined in the rings influence…look at bilbo and frodo's reunion in rivendell after he'd given up the ring….it still had its power. gollum and sauron were both chasing it alike, and sam and frodo were both obviously very intwined in the rings power. the rest were dead…

it also shows that frodo, like bilbo, showing mercy was a good idea….and of course has the message of having mercy to your enemies, even when they betray your trust.

so this all shows that tolkien….an author claimed by some to be shallow in his writing, had many layers and levels…these people just dont know how to read it

as for the barrow wights, i found the events pretty clear when reading it, im going through that chapter again, so its probably one of those parts that you have to read twice to get its clear meaning

rich

Here's one for ya, Rich.

Why not take the ring directly to the valley of the dead and have Aragon (aka king of the dead) command them to march nonstop without food or rest (because they don't need any) straight to mt. Doom with the ring and once the ring is destroyed, their service is considered rendered.

schmoo34 said:

interesting- but given the nature of the dead and their weak will…would they not just be weakened and take it to sauron himself?….i think personally that the rings power was more than aragorns in this (and any) matter

on that note i think any other race than a hobbit would probably do this…..after all its said that hobbits show remarkable resiliance to the ring, and theyre lack of interest in the outside world probably helped

rich

The thought of Glorfindel and another elf replacing Merry and Pippin sent my mind reeling.

If Elrond did that, the Fellowship would have been able to make it across the mountains. It was only having four hobbits that prevented them from making it. Two more elves and two less hobbits would have meant they lost Bill the Pony, but make it over.

That means they never face the Balrog and Gandalf never falls.

The Fellowship reaches Lorien in one piece.

It therefore follows that the journey down the river ends differently. Likely, the Fellowship can avoid the White Hand orcs all together.

No hobbits to Isengard. (And no ent there either.)

No Gandalf the White, which means Rohan falls to the Army of the White Hand without much of a fight. The Riders of the Mark have already been dismissed so the homeland falls and the people never make it to Helms Deep before the are slaughtered.

The Fellowship heads into the Dead Marshes.

Meanwhile, the Army of the Eye to Minas Tirith. Denethor kills himself and his son in despair.

Minas Tirith falls and their is wholesale slaughter.

Right about this time, the Fellowship succeeds in destroying the ring.

In the hour of its greatest triumph, the Army of the Eye finds itself without any leadership. The Lidless Eye is gone as are the Nazgul.

Saruman steps in as the new ruler of Middle Earth. He then goes about the business of conquering the rest of the free people, dwarves, elves and hobbits with his massive army.

interesting conclusion goblin king…..mine would perhaps go along the lines of (with some diffferences)

-glorfindel replaces merry and pippin

-the fellowship still do not make it over the mountains …i say this as it was obviously sauron who had a hand in the storms, and i do not think that he would have rested until half of the mountains had fallen on them, hobbits or no

-fellowship enter moria……things go perhaps better with no pippin to drop rock down the well, though i think its likely the goblins were already alerted. either way glorfindel and other fights off goblins with ease preventing frodo from getting speared.

-fellowship flight still occurs and they still fight balrog….now it is debateable if glorfindel and gandalf could have taken it down without at least one of them dieing, but lets say they kill it and both live.

-gandalf remains leader of the fellowship and guides them to lorien for safe haven….galadriel/celeborn and gandalf consult on the ring and perhaps make some solid plans on where to go after the river.

-fellowship leave lorien and go down the great river, orcs still attack however they are repelled, or at the very least the fellowship escape without any deaths so boromir survives (and with the power of the fellowship does not yet go mad)

-Aragorn and Bormir decide to make their way south to minas tirith as decided for aragorn to retake the throne

-all the rest fellowship reach emyn muil along with all their ropes etc. (as gandalf had planned this in lorien)….Gollum (trys or not?) lets go with trys to still take ring from frodo and is captured by the fellowship……gandalf lets him live as captive under his watchful eye

-dead marshes without much event…..

-around this time rohan is getting destroyed piece by piece, theoden never recovers from sarumans/grimas treachery and the kingdom falls without resistance with all the commanders still loyal to theoden being murdered. A significant proportion of the riders are turned to follow sarumans orders and join his hoarde of goblins and uruk hai and prepare to march on gondors N.W. borders

-fellowship somehow find way into mordor, perhaps by the morgul pass and cirith ungol - shelob cant fight the power of the fellowship and flees.

-aragorn and boromir find minas tirith in pieces- denethor mad and faramir dead. aragorn takes his place as king however boromir, mad with grief tries to kill aragorn- a duel commences with aragorn killing boromir ….(interestingly enough, in the drafts tolkien was going to have boromir betray aragorn and join saruman!)…anyways the victory is short lived as orcs enter minas tirith and kill aragorn- gondor falls

-having NO forces to draw saurons forces away from gorgoroth, the fellowship find it difficult to find their way through- gollum here escapes and alarts the orcs, who, after an epic batle between the fellowship and thousands of orcs, capture the fellowship and the ring

- Sauron gains the ring and rules middle earth!!!!!

Goblin King said:

A less dire ending to this scenario:

With Saruman leading two armies, Gandalf breaks up the Fellowship to mount a counterattack. Aragorn and Borimir rally the survivors of Minas Tirath into an army. The dwarf and elves of the Fellowship rally their people to resist Saruman Aragorn goes on the offensive against the army of the Lidless Eye using the Army of the Dead.

While Sauruman fights on two fronts Gandalf and the hobbits make their way to Fangorn.

The remaining humans of Middle Earth are drawn by Aragorn and Borimir to Helms Deep for a showdown. They are joined there by Glorfindel and an army of elves (kind of like the movie).

Isengard is crushed in a surprise attack by Ents. The Sauruman army at Helms Deep is destroyed by angry trees.

Gandalf enters the tower and faces Saurman. Gandalf emerges victorious as Gandalf the White.

Aragorn concedes the throne to Borimir. What few people remain in Middle Earth at last have a new king. Aragorn joins the elves in departing Middle Earth.

Goblin King said:

Or for an even weirder twist:

Iluvatar unexpectedly shows up, basically says "WTF is going on here?!" and tells Aragorn and Eowyn ('cause screw Arwen, that's why) to get on a boat with a bunch of animals while he floods the entire earth….. oh wait. We've seen that one already…

benhanses said:

ROFL!!! Fantastic ben! Except I might not toss Arwen (although I'd toss Liv Tyler and Miranda Otto-- perhaps more accurately the characters Eowyn and Arwen as given to us by Peter Jackson).

John85 said:

Well, in full disclosure, I was always more of a Eowyn fan than Arwen…. even in the books. I love the open plains, foothills, and mountains that make up Rohan. And I've always been more fascinated by a warrior-princess who loves horses than a "gonna hide behind my daddy's gown" elf that seduces the last great Human to fulfill her own twisted purposes. I'm onto you Arwen…. foul temptress.

benhanses said:

in all fairness though arwen gets far less 'air time' than eowyn does and even less than she does in the films

i think the two cant really be compared as theyre pretty much the opposite as women characters go in tolkiens world

rich

richsabre said:

This is VERY true!