LethalDose said:

True, but it still emphasizes that this is an ability of a high-end Force-user, not some barely-trained neophyte whose training comes from predominately from experimentation and self-instruction. Vader's had the benefit of training under two different and long-standing Force traditions, so naturally he's going to have tricks available to him that the PCs can't yet replicate.

Some of you seem to forget that Vader soaks the blaster bolt with a mechanical hand, while wearing armor.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Actually, if you watch the scene carefuly, you can see a small explosion off to the side as Vader is deflecting Han's shot.

Granted, it could go both ways in terms fo game mechanics. D6 and Saga Edition treated as negating/absorbing the damage (the later thru the Negate Energy power), where the RCR made it a high-level Jedi Consular/Guardian class ability that actually deflected the attack.

ItsUncertainWho said:

I think its overzealous fans reading too much into the EU. Pretty sure that ability has been classed as a "force power" in other materials. Still, yes, Vader in a system like this would easily have like a soak of 8-11 (4-5 brawn, 2-3 soak from armour, 2-3 resilience talents), easily enough to eat a blaster pistol shot. In fact, if a force power has to be tied to it, that could easily be explained as a result of both a high base soak, and using the Force Sense control upgrade to upgrade the difficulty of the attack. More chances for failure = a higher liklihood of no effect. Also, realize that just because the attack "misses" doesn't narratively mean that the target doesn't just block it with their hand (obviously, a GM should avoid overusing this effect on targets with insufficent soak for this to be believable).

Donovan Morningfire said:

… I just wanted props for my man Vader…

doctorbadwolf said:

Forgive me here, I haven't watched the movies in some time but…. as I recall, at any time in any of them if there was a dramatic combat sequence either a) the Jedi were not around, or B) the Jedi out shined any of the normals around them.

The first Death Star- Obi was away from the group.

Post Hoth- Luke was removed from the group.

Jedi- Luke goes into a Gang Lords palace, single handed, to save everyone. Helps them with a few biker scouts, and a misunderstanding with some teddy ruxpins, and then goes to the Death Star (how many millions of enemy troops on that thing?), to take on the baddest mother F*cker to ever exist, well…. solo.

I don't see a lot of Luke interacting with the normals. Not saying that the normals didn't do anything, I mean Leia choked out The Worm and all, but the other umpteen thousand scum…. well Luke took care of them.

Just sayin… Sure you can make an argument for a few isolated ordeals (Han blindly shooting a tentacle, or taking out the baddest bounty hunter of their time, in a comedic manner), but that doesn't change the fact.

$hamrock said:

Yeah this is my thought also, I watched Star Wars last month and it occured to me then that the only way Lucas had to balance the Jedi was to keep them on their own or out of shot. Thats great for a movie but not so hot for an RPG.

You guys just need to be patient. That book is coming. The game is starting like the orginal movies. Where the PCs don't have alot of interaction with the Force. I don't agree that Jedi need to surpass other PCs though. I saw the fight with Mace and Jango brought up but earlier in that movie Jango had a fight with Obi Wan that was not one sided at all. I see no reason why there can't be PCs with cool abilities that are not Force related fighting right along side Jedi.

Zar said:

Actually, I'm watching that fright right now and I can tell you that it was pretty one sided until Boba Fett hit Obi Wan with freaking *vehicle weaponry.* He got shot, nearly directly, with the Slave One's linked blaster cannons, and he got up and continued to fight.

FWIW, it is stuff like making things like the lightsaber and thermal detonator work like they 'should' rather than with the assumption that characters will be whacking each other with them/throwing them at each other all the time, and that the force powers were radically reworked in the first beta update that don't give me much confidence that they have put much thought in to how the system will do Jedi when the time comes.

I have full confidence that the book will work well when it arrives, particularly with playtester feedback.

Shakespearian_Soldier said:

It didn't last time.

What "last time"? :S

He's referencing (I think), Deathwatch.

But people could see that problem from miles away! We knew marines were going to operate using Unnatural Strength and Unnatural Toughness, and we knew as a community that was going to cause a fairly broken level of gameplay. I don't think its quite as bad as AluminumWolf makes it out to be (my players are enjoying the DW game I'm running right now), but I see where hes coming from with a matter of scale.

Still, right here, we are seeing probably 3 of the "core" jedi powers. And sure, they're quite effective, but I don't see how it indicates that they have no idea how the 3rd book is going to be balanced. If anything, it looks to me like its going to be much more effective than how the Space Marines turned out.

With Force Powers, the Force Sensitive Exlile specialization, and lightesabers, its as if right now they're giving a list of all the marine organs and starting traits/talents/gear in the DH core book. And right now, its not insanely broken, while remaining true to the setting.

KommissarK said:

I'd argue that we know Jedi are going to have lightsabers and high level force powers.

KommissarK said:

KommissarK said:

I agree with all of the above. Deathwatch and the other 40K products are awesome, but EotE is a cut above them (in my opinion).

Shakespearian_Soldier said:

I'm not saying it isn't, I just wanna know if it is going to work when everyone has a ten dice pool in Lightsaber, a bandoleer full of thermal detonators and can throw semi trailers at each other with their mind!

AluminiumWolf said:

We know lightsabers sure. And yes, those are effective. But as reality has proven, ranged > melee; easy to train (as in the rise of the crossbow) > difficult to train.

We at least know that Jedi are not going to be walking around in reinforced combat armour. We know they're going to have to split characteristics up among almost everything.

High level force powers are debatable. Much of it keys to what the starting point of the Jedi book is (upper level padawan?, early knight?) I would say though that the starting Jedi character is only going to have a force rating of about 2-3. Certainly, effective, but its hardly going to allow them to manifest a force move that can throw around a size 4 object. And note, we're probably going to have better, and more meaningful Dark Side rules. It could very well be that Jedi simply can't afford to spend force points to use dark side powers.

Its reasonable to believe that jedi are not going to begin play with a 4 in every stat, 10 base soak, 20 wound/strain threshold, etc. (as opposed to basically what we knew space marines were going to be).

As long as they're not too impervious to ranged, I don't see an issue.

Well said, KK. Just because it's the third book, with options for Force careers, doesn't necessarily mean that their starting character options will be any more potent than an EotE PC who has the same amount of XP, or who takes the Force Exile specialisation. Sure, a Jedi with a lot of XP under his belt will be formidable, but so will an EotE PC with the same amount. Sure, the Jedi might be BETTER by a small degree (or a medium one), but then that's true to the setting.

+++++We know lightsabers sure. And yes, those are effective. But as reality has proven, ranged > melee; easy to train (as in the rise of the crossbow) > difficult to train.+++++

I'd argue that part of the attraction of Jedi is that people have never really felt it was fair that guns replaced the sword, and The Force allows you to be an awesome Samurai dude with a laser katana cutting his way through modern soldiers.

It isn't real life, it is fantasy, and in this fantasy the swordsman can swat bullets out of the air.

+++++High level force powers are debatable.+++++

I'd hope the system can do high level force powers.

Personally, when I think 'Jedi' the minimum I want to be doing is the Obi-Wan/Qui-Gon/Darth Maul fight at the end of TPM, and ranging up to Starkiller and Mace Windu in the Tartakovsky Clone Wars Cartoons:-

So I would want the system to be able to satisfying generate both of those action scenes.

Bit too much in response to my last post to try to quote and respond, so I'll just do a general response.

Jengo was chosen by the Kaminoans, not the Republic government.

In a secret program.

Either way, he manages to more than hold his own against Kenobi. Later, he's taken out by someone that may be literally the most deadly lightsaber wielder to have ever lived. The fight at the cloning facility makes much more sense as a comparison. And the fact that Jengo has killed Jedi before.

AluminiumWolf said:

Personally, while I enjoyed the Clone Wars shorts, I find the things like that clip excessive as to be absurd when representing Jedi. I've seen their actions compared to Dragonball Z and I think the description fits at times. The prequel trilogy and the cartoons, not to mention video games such as The Force Unleashed, have elevated the Jedi into supermen leaving me to wonder why they need anyone else, much like some wonder why Superman needs the rest of the JLA. I would rather see mechanics which keep the Jedi on par with other characters. I don't want to see a game where they dominate the other characters and it becomes Buffy and the Scoobies.

mouthymerc said:

With the Clone Wars shorts, I've heard the idea put forth that those are "dramatic retellings" of various events, particularly the Windu segment being related by that kid, whose imagination probably led to some extensive embellishing of actual events.

Personally, I prefer to place Force Unleashed I and II (especially II) in the category of "alternate continuity" rather than being part of the mainstream canon, and that Starkiller's level of power is once again a dramatic embellishment of the actual events. After all, what makes for a better story, just hearing about a 20-something Jedi briefly standing up to Vader and Palpatine, or that same Jedi getting into the grandmother of all battles with two of the most reviled beings in the galaxy?

As I noted in a different thread, I prefer how writers such as Timothy Zahn and Micheal Stackpole handled the Force and Jedi, even such "Force powerhouses" as Luke Skywalker, with the Hand ot Thrawn duology making an excellent authors' saving throw that all the over-the-top stuff we'd seen Luke do previously in the books written under Kevin J. Anderson's stewardship was him abusing his powers and being on the verge of falling to the dark side, in no small part due to his briefly becoming the Reborn Emperor's apprentice in the first Dark Empire mini-series.

Donovan Morningfire said:

One man's "dramatic retelling" is another's "gospel". I would prefer if we stay away from "starship tossing" Force powers and lightsaber 'impervious to blaster fire" deflections. It looks promising so far, but, obviously, only time will tell.

It is probably worth knowing that I have spent longer than I should trying to convince the 40k people that they should do for Space Marines what The Force Unleashed did for Jedi.