GM Chris said:

I see it more as a feature, I mean, it's a darned good justification for why grenades and such weren't used in the setting.

Dulahan said:

But they were…

You don't see them in the Original Trilogy - because the special effects are EXPENSIVE. But in Episode II, Jango fires a ROCKET at Obi-Wan, and it leaves him reeling! But throughout the EU, some of the most successful Jedi-Hunters use explosives.

Also - from an army's point of view - they're dangerous. Collateral Damage and Friendly Fire is a major concern, and why armed forces infantry (in our world) don't walk around with a bandolier of grenades. From an Edge of the Empire perspective, these things are also highly restricted/illegal, very hard to come by, and very cost-prohibitive when you do.

GM Chris said:

Dangerous in space too, probably not something you want to be using in a boarding action.

Dulahan said:

GAD, no! Great point.

And you've now reminded me of a SADISTIC new way I can spend excess threat on a combat roll aboard a ship! MuahahahaHAHAHAHAHAHHA!!!!!!

Starkiller can force return missiles. But then he is that kind of guy. And I love him for it.

Starkiller can also pull Star Destroyers out of the sky, incinerate dozens of Stormtroopers in a single furious Force blast, or punk out Rancors like nobody's business. To the point that he's relieved to see it's just a Rancor.

Then he fights a kaiju.

The Gorog:

It isn't like kaiju are anything new to Star Wars:-

:0)

(God I love The Force Unleashed). Unleash that ****. Unleash it!

Dulahan said:

I completely get what you're getting at. Buffy is very similar to All Flesh Must be Eaten, The Dresden Files using the Fate System is close too. Old school D&D used spells per day, new school uses per encounter, etc… The way I see it though, is that's just robbing Peter to pay Paul. I grant you, it allows for a full on jedi being intermixed with the rest of the galaxy, but in another manner it limits what the jedi can do, or how much influence the jedi is allowed to have on the scene. The problem is, the force doesn't tire a person out, it doesn't have a "cap", per say. I get what you're saying though. Personally, if I were a Jedi, I would rather run along the Starkiller path of balls out, tea-bagging, bad ass, jedi, then a one shot wonder (per however often).

It can be done, just the jedi wont be like the jedi we are used to seeing in the movies.

I admit, I have no clue what goes on in the Dr. Who game.

As to RtoJ, that probably isn't the greatest example for jedi integration. If you think about it, Luke was a one man army taking Jabba's palace to rescue the others. After that, he splits off from the group and they go do their menial task, while he destroys the two baddest asses in the whole galaxy. Actually, had the others not brought down the shields, I'm sure he could have easily have walked over there and done that too. I mean, honestly, who was left there that could actually stop him? If anything RotJ reinforces the concept of separating the jedi from the others.

Anyway, good debate.

Oh, from the prior post: SPARTAN 117, is Master Chief from the Halo universe. (SPARTANS would mechanically be on par with Jedi, (no hocus pocus, but they more then make up for it in just stats and abilities, in that setting). And Viva Pinata, it's kinda like Farmville.

Double post, wont allow me to delete it.

AluminiumWolf said:

No, it's not that they're new. The ability to slay them in personal combat is, however. The crew of the Millennium Falcon ran for their lives from that monster. Starkiller would look at it, crack his knuckles and say "Well, I wanted to get in a light workout before breakfast, anyway."

One of the ways we could conceive of balance…

Jango Fett gave Obi Wan a run for his money. Yes, he died at Mace Windu's hand but Mace is more dangerous. Anyway, Obi Wan vs Jango Fett = tie. So why not balance Jedi against other PCs mechanically and then just say that the other PCs (non Jedi PCs) are the Jango Fetts of the universe. That was always my explanation with my group… That our particular Jedi ran with some truly exceptional people. Rare people. People that could actually stand up to Jedi. Some were amazing at combat. Some were skill monkeys. All had something to contribute.

Jedi can still be better than everyone… It's just the other PC classes represent the truly exceptional of their kind. Regular people would be awed by any or all of the PCs. They're heroes, after all.

And as for Starkiller… …. ….well….

End of Line.

RonRamron said:

I think that is what they are going for. Jango had been a BH for a number of years meaning his level is way up there. Obi Wan, just made knight not long before the combat took place. So a BH at the height of his career, equals a Jedi at the start of his. Hence the different books representing different power levels.

Didn't Jango get the drop on Obi? I seem to remember a "sucker punch" (surprise attack) in there. Will have to go back and re-watch that (not one of my favorites).

$hamrock said:

Quite the contrary, the Story Point thing would work out so they are the Jedi we see in the movies, and the rest of the chars are too. Able to influence the story as much even if not by direct awesomeness of power. Because let's be honest, the sort of story we see in movies (Star Wars or anything else) really does struggle to work for gaming groups. Whether it be Master and Apprentice (About as classic a trope as you can get) or Jedi and Smuggler and Droids. Yet in movies, the 'weaker' ones still often have as much influence in the story. And sometimes manage to be cooler. And that's what the Buffy and Dr Who stuff do.

AluminiumWolf said:

Except you don't have to and should not wait. GM Chris is more than capable of singing Saga's praises. I've always had a soft spot for WEG's system personally. Options are existant.

$hamrock said:

Actually, AotC took place 10 years after TPM (in which he earned his spurs by slaying Darth Maul), so Obi-Wan's been a Jedi Knight for a full decade, and is bordering on being a Jedi Master, so he's hovering between veteran Jedi Knight and Jedi Master in terms of his level of ability. Still, that scene does prove that with solid tactics and a willingness to fight dirty, an ordinary person can hold their own against a Jedi, at least for a little while.

The only problem would be that unlike Obi-Wan, most PCs wouldn't hesitate to start breaking out the Force Powers.

We all need to recognize that the Jedi we focus on in the movies are generally the elite. The best of the best. These are the Jedi that all other Jedi aspire to be. As for these other Jedi, let's remember that Darth Vader and a legion of *Clone Troopers* wiped out ALL the Jedi in the temple. They're great, but they're far from unstoppable.

Also, the idea of Jedi Scholars, Consulars, Librarians, Gardeners, Family Law Attorneys - Not all Jedi need to be super ninjas.

RonRamron said:

That actually brings up an interesting point that pertains to the original idea of this thread.

Just what exactly is a "Jedi," speaking purely in terms of game mechanics?

Let's break it down, bit by bit, shall we?

But first, a brief bit of history. In the WEG D6 Star Wars, the term "Jedi" was used as author shorthand for "Force User." Just look at all the Force power descriptions, including those that no self-respecting Jedi would ever conceive of using, things like Injure/Kill, Inflict Pain, or Force Lightning. So back then, "Jedi" and "Force User" were pretty much interchangeable.

So, back to the present day and FFG's beta for their Star Wars game, and the question asked above, just what is a Jedi in terms of game mechanics?

On a purely mechanical level, A Jedi is a character armed with a glowing energy sword that can use Force powers.

Now, does the Edge of the Empire Beta allow you to play a character armed with a glowing energy sword that can use Force powers?

Short answer, yes.

Longer answer… grab a beverage and a bite to eat

Let's take this step-by-step.

First up, glowing energy sword aka lightsaber. Iconic Jedi weapon, not as clumsy or random as a blaster, relic of a more civilized age, and so forth. Per page 112, stats for lightsabers do exist. And going the responses in a few different threads, it's a pretty bad-ass weapon, with some great defensive qualities and can easily score critical hits.

Can your character get one? Not to start with, and it won't be easy to acquire, but it is possible.

Can your character wield one? Not incredibly well as there's no official skill for it, but the book does mention the GM could very likely create a skill to cover lightsabers, but it'd be a non-career skill, making it expensive to purchase. Alternatively, there's the second Ongoing Effect for the Sense Power that lets you upgrade an ability die to a proficiency die, so while equally expensive, it does help.

So, are lightsabers available for characters to be used in the game? Check. Only thing missing at the moment is bouncing the a blaster attack right back at the attacker, but we really didn't see that until Return of the Jedi, and not always a common trait to the Jedi we see.

Now for the second half of the question, Force Powers. Seeing as how there's an entire chapter dedicated to the Force, I'd say that yes, your character can use Force powers. They may not always be successful, and you have to pay through the nose with XP to get them, but you can use them.

What sort of powers do they offer? Well, if we look at what's given, we have a pretty good reflection of what we see in the movies.

Move covers the various uses of telekinesis, such as lifting and hurling objects or attacking others directly with the Force. Looks good.

Influence's big gimmick is the mind trick, which is quite well-covered at this point, and also gives the option to mentally assault someone with the Force. That last one can be debated as to whether it really ever showed up in the movies, but the Vader's taunting of Luke during their duels could very well be seen as Vader using this aspect of Influence to batter down Luke's will to resist. So again, looks good.

Sense covers two things, sensing thoughts and emotions, and improving your combat prowess. The Jedi we saw in the films were pretty capable warriors even without their lightsabers, as Kenobi proved when squaring off against Jango even after being deprived of his lightsaber, and Luke as of RotJ was pretty much unstoppable when facing anything other than a Sith Lord, so I'd call that a check. Vader made plenty of usage of sensing Luke's thoughts and feelings, so that's a check as well.

The only two power effects we don't see in EotE Beta that we saw in the movies was Dooku and Palps' usage of Force Lightning, which the movies treat as a pretty high-level dark side abiity, and Yoda's rebuking of his opponent's Force-based attacks, particularly the lightning.

Obi-Wan's deflection of Dooku's lightning attack in AotC with just a lightsaber could be addressed simply by Force Lightning being treated as a ranged attack roll, much like attacking someone with Move is, and that Obi-Wan had enough ranged defense to ensure Dooku failed his attack roll. Obi-Wan and Anakin's brief struggle in RotS when blasting each other with Move could just be chalked up to cinematics, but these are two powerful and experienced Jedi, so again it could just be a "higher mystery" sort of thing.

So for the most part, the Force Powers we have cover the majority of what we see in the movies, barring the stuff we see folks who are at least Jedi Masters accomplish (Anakin gets a pass due to his Chosen One status).

So for the question, can I play a character that wields a glowing energy sword and uses Force Powers? The answer is a resounding YES.

Can you play a high-powered master of the Force? That answer is currently a no, but is planned to be addressed in a couple year's time. As for those folks complaining about not having that support right now, for those of us that cut our Star Wars gaming teeth on the WEG system, Jedi got only a few nods here and there throughout the product line, with the Tales of the Jedi sourcebook being the closest thing to an official "Jedi supplement," and even that was mostly just reprinting the various powers that had cropped up here and there in other books in terms of Force stuff. WotC's run with the OCR version wasn't much better; yeah, there was a huge book on the Dark Side, but the crunch was next to useless if you wanted to stay on the straight and narrow. RCR was a little better in that Power of the Jedi was fairly early in the product line, the Heroes' Guide had some new Force Traditions as well as delving deeper into the notion of Force techniques. Saga Edition was the rarity in that just about every book had something pertaining to or expanding upon the Force, even if it was something as minor as new Force Tradition talent tree or three, and with several books greatly expanding upon what you could do with the Force in the form of new Force powers, new Force talents, new Force techniques, and in some cases even new Force secrets.

So the real issue is not "I can't play Jedi" but rather "I can't make my character a high-powered Force User." Personally, given the scope of the setting, not being able to play a high-powered Force User is a good thing. Having someone like tFU's Starkiller or Clone Wars-era Anakin would be very problematic to keeping with the theme that Edge of the Empire is going for. You're the crew of the Serenity, not the crew of the U.S.S. Enterprise. For the majority of EotE groups, going into a head-on fight against the Empire is, as Han put it, "more like suicide." Even in the Big **** Movie, Mal and his crew didn't try to fight the Alliance fleet head-on, and instead used trickery to keep said fleet extremely busy while they snuck past to accomplish their goal. To keep with the Firefly-theme, River is a pretty big deal in the movie, but in this game she'd simply be a Force-Sensitive Exile with a Force Rating of 2 and both Ongoing Effects for Sense, along with a range or magnitude upgrade for the "sense emotions/thoughts" branch.

Also, as the Week 2 updated showed, the Beta simply wasn't ready to handle a high-powered Force-user in its initial state, as being able to reliably roll a single Light Side force point was often enough to activate most powers. With the revision, having a high Force Rating means something more than "I can have one of Sense's Ongoing Effects up and use Influence or Move that same turn."

And given how unbalancing a high-powered Force user could be in all the previous iterations of Star Wars RPGs, I actually appreciate that FFG isn't rushing to crank out material for high-level Force usage. It could very well be that they've learned some lessons from Deathwatch and trying to fit Space Marines into a system that wasn't intended to let characters play Games Workshops' flagship Mary Sue brigade. Since they're building a new system from the ground-up instead of inheriting somebody else's work, I commend them for wanting to take the time and try to make sure they do it right.

So perhaps instead of complaining that we can't play a high-level Force User that can hurl starfighters with a casual flick of the wrist, maybe we should consider that FFG is trying get things right with the basic Force system before they start working on the rules for characters that could break a less stable system without even trying.

And if you're really that hard up to play a high-powered Force User, there are plenty of existing options that will let you scratch that itch until such time as FFG gets around to releasing that material.

Donovan Morningfire said:

I had no clue when Obi got capped. Still he was a jedi knight for 10 years. Clones were already being pumped out before the end of the first movie, so Jango had already been selected for that process- 10 years prior. I can't imagine what the selection process was, but I gotta imagine Jango is in the top 1% of humanity, just because he was selected. My point is, it was a rather evenly matched fight, between a much lower experienced jedi and a BH.
(This goes with my theory that the future books are going to come out with different levels of power, so for a BH to play in the Jedi sandbox, she would have to be level "10" to compare to a level 1 jedi).

We all know how Jango's day went when he went up against a Jedi of more evenly matched proportions, Windu….

Just theories I have.

$hamrock said:

But to be fair… Mace got lucky. ;-). When they FIRST went at it up on the platform with Dooku, Fett bitched Mace and set him ON FIRE. Forced him down to the arena floor. The only reason Jango died is because a runaway Reek destroyed his Jetpack. No avenue of escape. (I've said it before… The Fett men have bad luck with Jetpacks. They get destroyed in every **** scene they're in, LOL.)

GM Chris said:

LoL sho 'nuff.

$hamrock said:

"Which light saber is yours?"

"The one that says Bad @$$ Mother&?!$#% on it."

GM Chris said:

Funny enough, I was pretty ambivalent about Mace Windu. I love Sam Jackson, but the character just didn't really do anything for me.

What I would have killed for is more female Jedi. We got very, very few in the movies and they didn't really do anything. Perhaps the most famous of them, Aayla Secura, has a death scene that I find highly suspect.

Thank the Force for the KOTOR games and RPGs, where I can be an awesome female Jedi who gets to be the star. I plan to play TOR when I get a better computer.

Don't forget Ahsoka.

RonRamron said:

Rule 34 sure as heck hasn't *rolls eyes*

Did they really have to put a tweenage girl in that kind of outift? And then there's the fact that Lucas initially wanted her to be eleven *shudder*

Don't watch, huh? You should. She's grown into a fantastic character.. However, yes. Her first year outfit was a bit inappropriate.