AluminiumWolf said:

No. Not FYIGM. It's the simple fact that not every game is going to please every single gamer out there. It's not hard to read the writing on the wall with these Beta rules if you think it's going to be the game for you. At that point, it's up to you to decide. The fact that other people are enjoying it is entirely irrelevant.

Sorry. But we don't *owe* you any compassion. FFG doesn't *owe* you any particular type of Star Wars game. You don't like it? Fine. Vote with your wallet then. You've been throwing about wildly unsupported claims since these boards launched. Why don't we just wait and see what FFG does with the production queue before we scream about the sky falling and stars collapsing in on themselves and all games breaking at high levels? There's plenty of room for these rules to expand and evolve.

Please and thank you, this is the last I'm going to say to you on the topic.

Cyril said:

Did that with 40k. Shockingly, the rules broke at high level.

Are there any systems that work at high level?

Like I say, this is based on what happened the last time they did this. But I am sure this time it will be different. This time.

Do you know the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

In FFG's defense, with 40k they were working with GW's constraints on an already half developed line. Though I still don't have a lot of faith in this one yet. Because even looking at the rules as they are now, the Force is CLUNKY. And getting higher Force Rating levels? And dealing with new careers and changing over in general? Yeah, this is… well, worrying. FFG's done some great things in the past, so they might still pull it off. But the career/class based system alone is a step in the wrong direction if you ask me. Far better if more free form.

Cyril said:

+1. In fact, +20.

If you as the consumer don't like the direction that Jay Little and his team have chosen to take their Star Wars RPG, then by all means don't buy it. it being either the Beta or the final product when it comes out next year. As I mentioned, there are plenty of alternatives to be had for any number of pre-existing RPGs for which you may well already own the books. They pretty much put all their cards on the table at the FFG seminar this past GenCon, so there's really no surprises as to what they have in mind for the product line.

Personally, I don't care one whit for White Wolf's product line, and yet you won't find me over there whining an kavitching about how they're not producing an RPG that I'd want to play. And I've been calling Paizo's Pathfinder game nothing more than a fresh coat of paint over the ramshackle apartment building that is D&D 3.X since the early days of the Alpha, and yet I don't labor under any sort of delusion that they need to change their product line to suit my tastes.

And in both cases, I've chosen to vote with my wallet and simply not purchased any of their materials beyond a few of the core rulebooks for White Wolf and the PDF version of Pathfinder when it was released at GenCon, the later so that if nothing else, I could make an informed decision about whether I'd want to play it or not instead of making an ignorant choice without all of the principle information.

At least with the EotE Beta, you can get a fairly solid idea of what the game is going to be without shelling out the 50+ dollars that the final version of the core rulebook is bound to cost. As I believe was quite sagely noted elsewhere, gamers used to pay similar amounts and then some for "beta testing," only back then it was called "first printing" and was sold under the notion that the writers had already worked all the bugs out before sending the sucker off to press. That most of those games have since had updated printings with various errata and clarifications (which you had to buy in the form of a brand new core rulebook prior to the days of the internet and free web updates) says volumes about how easily a mass horde of gamers can come up with combinations and scenarios the writers would have never thought of in their most feverish, caffiene-riddled, sleep-deprived dreams. That the Force Chapter got a pretty extensive overhaul in just the second week in (and only didn't in the first week because they were still working on the revisions) says a lot about the amount of work needed before FFG can begin to really work on the rules for more powerful Force-using characters.

But again, if you don't like the direction that FFG is taking, then vote with your wallet and don't buy any future products in the line. And if you haven't bought a copy of the Beta and don't like the direction, then simply walk away with the smug feeling that you haven't wasted any money on something you don't like and instead spend your time searching for a game that does Star Wars the way you want it done.

One thing for the "If you don't like it, don't buy it. Use something else." Crowd.

That's nice if you have another game you think does Star Wars right. But for some of us? That still doesn't exist.

Dulahan said:

At the risk of sounding like a d-bag, might I humbly suggest you take it upon yourself to design the Star Wars game that you and your group wants to play?

Dulahan said:

Not to be flippant (well… Maybe a little…)…

But with 4 distinct SW RPGs… You haven't found ONE that meets your needs. Even with house-rules.

I wonder what the common thread is?

Dulahan said:

And in FFG's defense, there's never been a means to handle the Force that wasn't clunky at some level. Even WEG's D6 game, which has gotten a lot of praise from it's overall simplicity, got wonky when it came to Force Powers, namely those requiring multiple skills to activate as well as maintained powers. And don't get me started on the headache that the Concentration and Lightsaber Combat powers could cause.

But also, having actually sat down and played the game and the Force system (pre-Week 2 update, but that will likely change in the very near future), I can say that the Force system isn't anywhere near as "clunky" as you claim it to be. With FFG's approach, it's actually fairly binary; you either generate enough Force Points to accomplish what you intended to do and succeed, or you don't and you fail. Do, or do not, there is no try.

The opposed dice roll for Influence's mind-trick effect and the psuedo-attack roll for Move add a degree of complexity, but they're not clunky, and go a long way towards balancing powers that were quite frankly broken. And even then, those powers are still powerful, and a higher Force Rating just means that they are going to be a lot more reliable the more dice you roll. So quite frankly, being able to raise your Force Rating shouldn't be an easy thing to accomplish. As it stands, a Force Rating of three (aka young Jedi Knight level) will make the activation of most Force Powers quite easy to achieve. And frankly, for a game that has openly and honestly stated that it's not about Jedi a Force Rating of 3 should be the absolute max that a character can achieve. So on that point at least, I do agree with you a bit, but I'm quite okay with the specialization system and having to buy other talents before I can increase my would-be Jedi's Force Rating again; being able to become stronger in the Force shouldn't be an easy thing to accomplish, any more than purchasing multiple Dedication talents should be (which is what the Force Rating boils down to, a specialized version of Dedication that applies to a non-characteristic trait). If and when there are dedicated Jedi specializations released by FFG, I'm sure they'll have some neat stuff to make using a lightsaber that much cooler in addition to other Force-related talents beyond just boosting your Force Rating.

As for a lack of Force-sensitive organizations, as cool as some of them might be, if you look at just the movies, there's no basis for them. They're a purely EU-driven concept that's been included retro-actively as "being there behind the scenes." In most Star Wars RPGs, the various specific Force Traditions weren't even mentioned until later sourcebooks; with the Saga Edition corebook being the exception, and even then they only had the Dathomir Witch and the Jensaari. All the other Force Traditions (which were in hiding during Palpatine's reign) weren't discussed until later books, again with Saga Edition being an exception as they made mentions of various Force Traditions in just about every book. Before those, you either had Jedi or "self-taught Force User from a primitive society." So FFG not including details on those various Force Traditions in the Beta (which is pretty **** light on fluff as is) shouldn't really come as much of a surprise.

GM Chris said:

Well said, sir. Well said indeed.

Maybe it's past time to just lock this thread and move on to more interesting discussions? The horse has been beaten past death and bones long since ground to make bread.

Donovan Morningfire said:

I don't think the way to fix that is to try to bolt force powers on to a system intended for playing Han Solo.

I dunno. The heavy revisions to the force rules ALREADY strongly implies to me that they haven't put any thought in to how the system is going to handle Jedi when the time comes. And with 40k when they didn't design the system with later games in mind it was a disaster.

GM Chris said:

Not even close. And 4 distinct? Not really, there's 3 distinct ones. d20 and SAGA are as close as WEG 1.0 and 2.0Revised. Hardly different games.

d20 and Saga? I HATE the Class and Level system of D&D style games. They quite honestly drain the fun from a game for me. I'm not even kidding about that. I've played d20 and Saga games to level 20 from level 1 and just… not had fun. Despite playing under a good gm with a group I otherwise have a blast with. The system itself literally leeches any fun from the game any time a roll or combat comes up. So no amount of house ruling is going to change a system I fundamentally despise at every level.

WEG? Honestly, it CAN NOT handle Jedi and force users well at all. Yes, the rules are there, it just plain doesn't work though. Even after 5d, then things just get stupid. And wonky. And more clunky yet. It's fine in a general game for a few sessions. But it just doesn't work as you start to advance past starting level too far. But Jedi or not, long term gaming just doesn't work well with it. House Rules can't fix the underlying problems, they really just don't.

And finally, on the topic of House Ruling. you make a pretty blatant presumption that I want to be a GM. Frankly. I don't (Sure I might run it for the Beta if I can somehow find a group soon, interest has… not been there locally Which is why I mostly confine myself to discussions about thematic issues and Chargen, not so much on in play stuff like combat, but I digress). I want to PLAY. And that means not only finding a group when I live in the middle of nowhere - which is hard enough - but finding a GM who has house rules that are appealing to me. I'm probably more likely to win the lottery than that! So as far as I'm concerned, House Ruling is NEVER EVER EVER EVER the answer (Even more so in a beta like this - fine if testing to use as a solution, yes, but not to flippantly tell someone who doesn't agree with something in the rules). And I hate how that's always the solution if you don't like something when some people reply to things I'm arguing for. The majority of people in our hobby are players, not GMs. And too often we're forgotten.

EDIT:

And as we're saying, the Force Rules as stand are already clunky. It's hard to have faith in them when it gets to a big level. And I honestly think FFG has some great designers, it BOGGLES me that they didn't come up with a better idea. Especially when they've done so many other high level cool things in the constraints of a system as awkward as the 40kRP's one. BC and OW have turned it into something cool. And as early as Rogue Trader they were coming up with awesome sub systems that worked wonderfully.

And Jedi are something that needs to be addressed well. So does the "Jedi in a party of Non-Jedi" question. Because frankly, that was what the movies were. Even if Luke was sometimes separate, other times he wasn't. Including some pretty high combat situations like the raid on Jabba's Barge.

Dulahan said:

I'm not trying to be a ***** here but, I not really sure what the point is. You have been very vocal in this and other threads, well within your rights, but you have established that this isn't the system for you, nor is any other, and while that sucks (and I'm sorry for your loss), I'm not too sure what further complaining is going to accomplish, especially on this board.

From what I am gathering, you're not happy with the way Anyone has done jedi and the force. What you want is to be SPARTAN 117, in the land of Viva Pinata.

Jedi's are impossible to balance against any other class, except maybe Sith, and even at that the Sith are way stronger. So they won't balance against Chewie, Han, Leia, Fred Durst, or anyone else. So out of over 1000 other people/aliens in the movie, you only feel that 3 (Luke, Vader, and The Emp) made the movie, all the rest can just dive off a cliff. Well, for me… Luke was a whiny Bi*ch, Vader (was awesome) but taken just off his acting, he could have been a lead in Twilight, and the Emp… is on the screen, what? 8 minutes? Maybe that is the very reason FFG set this in said time period so they wouldn't have to deal with the "impossible" balance the jedi, issue.

In my honest wishes, I hope the Jedi and Force book is 95% "other" force users, because that is what my players and I are actually going to be able to use, in this time period. It won't be all that great to have power and stats for Jedi knights, counselors, Mace Windu, Yoda, or anyone or anything else. They are all DEAD. It will be a waste of space, and my time reading the stuff. Yes, give me the stats for some stronger force powers, The Witches can teach lightening, etc.. Heck there are some force traditions that are not even apart of the "light/dark" ordeal. Great to have the stats/powers for a padawan but whom are they to apprentice under? Am I to assume they are going to find, X number of halocrons (exceptionally, rare given that the temple went boom), to become a jedi. How old are they going to be at that point?

While I would like the information for background, I would get a ton more use out of stats for Gammorreans then I would for most of the jedi stuff. I already know the fluff, what do the mechanics matter if my players are not playing them (and in my current main group, I don't have one who cares about them).

Anyway, I am sorry this edition didn't work out for you, perhaps in 3-5 years when the license comes up again, some other company will get it and do "an old republic" game where they player characters are only jedi, and thus balanced against everything else.

Well, I doubt they actually want to make an RPG targeted mostly at people who hate Jedi. In three years the Jedi will show up whether you like it or not, and they may as well work properly when they arrive.

Or hell, sooner if we accept that letting people play Jedi if they want to is not a moral failing, and actually try to throw people a bone.

i prefer what they have now…build the system, iron out the kinks and then wxpand int higher powered games depicting more specialised forces and the Jedi

$hamrock said:

No, really. It's not impossible to balance. That is my point.l As I've pointed out time and again, other games have dealt with similar power disparities - Timelords vs Normals in Dr Who. Slayers vs Normals in Buffy. Protector vs Normals in Ghosts of Albion. All of those are similarly "Overpowered types" that are more powerful than everything else. Yet despite all that, those games found ways to make them balanced, to give the other characters equivalent narrative 'balance'. My argument the whole time has been that such a thing seems to not even be attempted yet. And that's what should be done.

Second: NO. I do not want to be Spartan whatever the heck. I want it so the OPTION to be more than a pathetic user of the thing that sets the setting apart is there. It's not all Jedi. As you yourself said, there's plenty of other traditions that weren't wiped out in the EU. Jedi were the premier ones, of course. But other options survive.

Third:

As to what might be accomplished? Well part of it is discussion. People like the OP and Aluminum Wolf obviously have similar views on the system's potential weakpoints, both as a system itself, and a belief that no Jedi is a flaw in the game itself.

Part of it is to hammer home my point that balancing Jedi is not an impossibility like people like you seem to think. It might not do much good in this game, but it gets under my skin when people just presume such a thing is impossible.

Part of it is that this is still a Beta - the main book isn't even truly released yet. And while I doubt EotE's corebook will have much more, there's still a chance it might get a little bit. And more importantly, with enough demand and fan outcry, there may well be a chance that there could be a sourcebook a lot earlier on than 2015 to have more options for Force Use. I am vocal, but it's because it is something I'm passionate about. And also I'm currently unemployed so have more free time than many people while waiting on Job interviews and between filling out apps.

Further, tied to the beta, even some others who do agree with the direction agree that the Force Rules are currently a bit clunky, and wonder how they can translate to higher powered stuff. Objectively speaking, ignoring all my other complaints, THAT is something I agree with completely. Even acknowledging that the version of the game I want may yet be coming in 2015, seeing the system as it is now handling things with the Force so awkwardly seriously has me worried about how they are going to scale things up and keep the game "Fully Compatible" with this version and Rebellion. Because right now if we presume it's going to mean more force dice and newer skills, things sound DANG clunky. And that gives very justifiable worries (As have appeared in this thread) that the lines may not be as seamlessly cross-compatible as it was said.

After all, you need only look at the 40k line to see similar cases of "Same system, allegedly compatible, but not without a lot of work." This line is supposed to be without work. And again, who knows, maybe it will be! But that's part of the job of a Beta, to get those things hammered out now so when Rebellion and later Force & Destiny get worked on it will be a simple case to have a Bounty Hunter, a Rebel Pilot, and a Jedi working together without needing any work at all. Again, that's on topic with the thread. And I bought in, so I'm going to make points.

TLDR: It is NOT impossible, other lines balance similar power discrepancies and make the less powerful types just as interesting if not more so. Still a beta, and I really do have points beyond just "Not my game, here's why" - Pointing out the real concern about how things will scale and leave things fully compatible as has been claimed will be the case. Which is well on topic with things said in this thread too!

My patience for people who want Jedi is exactly nill. Probably because the inevitably come off as whiny know-it-all fanboys who think their vision is the only correct one. Or armchair game designers who's self-evident genus continues to go unrecognised. Either is supremely obnoxious.

It's like ordering an ice cream sunday and being angry there aren't peanuts.

not posted before, but so far I'm loving the whole concept and system that FFG have proposed… its not perfect, but it has the basis to be a good system just need a bit of play testing and hammering and it could be forged into something brilliant

anyway this thread is quickly turning into a festival of flame and whining…

I was under the impression that this was a beta … an unfinished system and these boards were for people to discuss and talk about and hopefully improve, or at least suggest improvements, the system.

but at the end of the day this is a system set in the fringes of the empire, it is a game not for jedi, I understand that you are upset about thisand the system isnt quite what you wanted, but what you seem to be doing it having a trantrum that the world (FFG) isn't doing things the way you want…

I'm sorry you feel this way, I'm also sorry you find the need to winge and whine on to these boards, perhaps you have the need to vent, perhaps you feel people need to know how you feel, THEY DON'T.. you are not a special snowflake.. at the end of the day I really dont care that you are upset that this system isn't the one you are looking for

it is the one many other people are looking for and the one many other people are testing and proposing suggestions to improve..

you are just throwing toys out of your pram and being distructive not constructive..

if you are not happy I'm sorry, but many poeple and even yourself have given many other suggestions for other systems that may well please you..

please go there and stop polluting these boards

p.s. hoping to get some play testing done this weekend..

Dulahan said:

Sounds like someone that hasn't actually played Saga Edition, as beyond some of the core d20 mechanics (d20-based task resolution, class/level concept, attack bonus, hit points), it's a pretty different system from the OCR/RCR, giving the GM a great deal more leeway in how the game runs doing a pretty fair job of replicating Jedi without making them automatically overpowering compared to other character types.

I think nobble put it well in that this has turned into one big whine fest, to the point I'm surprised FFG hasn't started rolling in the cheese wheels

And in case the "I want my Jedi NOW GORRAM IT!" crowd have missed it, this isn't the final product. It's a freaking BETA! Let them get a solid rules foundation (the entire point of this whole thing) and then they can start bringing in the Jedi, who've always had the effect of straining the rules in any RPG they've appeared in, both the officially produced versions and the many fan-generated system hacks.

Or you know what, if you're really that upset that being a bona-fide temple-trained Jedi isn't a starting option… then create your own set of rules for playing Jedi in this game. Myself, Cyril, and a handful of others that weren't happy with the very limited selection of species offered in the Beta book, so rather than sit on our butts and whine about the lack of diversity, we instead chose to write up our own versions of a bunch of different species, with a fan-made supplement that's just about ready to be offered to the masses.

You don't like how FFG is handling Force Powers or the lack of Jedi? Then get off your self-entitled butts and come up with a fleshed-out, thought-out system that you think will do a better job than what the currently have. Instead of just armchair quarterbacking, actually offer some constructive ideas as to how FFG can improve things.

It's getting to the point that the "No Jedi, game sucks!" crowd are just another broken record.

First post, don't kick too hard…

Maybe I'm in the unspoken, unwashed minority but I don't think given the setting the book needs or would benefit from the rules for fully trained, prequel era power Jedi. For a character playing in the post-prequel to ROTJ era, you could argue that becoming a Jedi is the ultimate goal for the character in the final adventure of the final campaign. If I was to play a force sensitive exile, it's about the journey.

As long as the final rules are clear, easy to run and play with, and allow a Force Sensitive character to ultimately get up to the level where Luke was towards the end of TESB, as a prospective purchaser I'll be happy. Strong with the Force, but not a Jedi yet.

New to the forums. New to the discussion.

Here's how I see it. Statements like "vote with your wallet" and criticizing someone for wanting to play a Jedi are as non-constructive as railing against the force rules with no suggestions on how it might be fixed. I'm surprised that gamers who DON'T wanna play a Jedi aren't more supportive of those that do. It's a key part of the Star Wars setting. Hell, look at FFG's advert on their homepage for the Star Wars card game. It's a picture of five Star Wars characters, THREE of them are force users.

Learning that people want to play force users, learning that some people think the force rules are clunky, this is all very useful information for a game that's in it's Beta. I suppose if this were a software beta this would be called "feature request." People are NOT WRONG for requesting this feature. People are NOT WRONG for saying they don't wanna wait two years for this feature. People are NOT WRONG when they point out that the Force and the Jedi are a key ingredient of Star Wars. I personally have no interest in playing a Jedi, but it makes perfect sense for people to be unhappy when a Star Wars Roleplaying Game comes out and they're absent.

Regardless of the fact that Edge of the Empire is about characters I WOULD be happy playing, my personal take is this -

If this were a film, television show, novel, comic book or video game and it was set in a specific era, then yep… adhere to the rules of that era! If there are no Jedi, sorry, we have to be consistent with the time-frame of the setting. Don't complain.

But a roleplaying game isn't a movie, tv show, comic book, or video game. A roleplaying game isn't even a story. It's a tool-set for people to create their own stories. Role playing gamers are diverse when it comes to what kind of story they want to tell. Let these people sound off if they feel like they want more tools to do this. The Jedi "tool" being absent is strange and unexpected! There's absolutely nothing wrong with calling that out! Fans making noise about this stuff is exactly what FFG needs to hear when planning their line.

So please, no more "enough of this" or "lock this thread" stuff.

This is all useful information. People are reacting, and the very occurrence of reaction is useful information to FFG.

As an impartial reader thus far, I have to say, I find it hard to support the reasoning that FFG should include more Force material in the Smuggler Source Book. Why bother? It's the Smuggler Source Book. The fact that they have Force material in there at all is awesome.

It's not a smuggler book any more than it's a "politico" book or a "bounty hunter" book. It's a core-book with a setting baked in, and FFG needs to know if that's satisfactory with it's prospective player base. That's why you beta test a book like this. In your case, it is. In the case of people who'd like to take their game in a slightly different direction, it isn't. Both views are useful for FFG.

RonRamron said:

Jedi do have a nasty habit of taking over everything they are in. So I am sure if you don't like the fact that Jedi saturate Star Wars so much these days and want to play Smugglers and Bounty Hunters having smugglery and bounty huntery adventures a game where people CAN'T play Jedi must seem like a godsend.

countrugen said:

It isn't about having Jedi rules in the smuggler book. It is about making sure that the Jedi rules in the Jedi book actually work properly after people have waited three years for them.

And also trying to do something about softening the three year wait.

AluminiumWolf said:

I'm don't have a major beef with the Jedi and Jedi Masters being in the final book. And when those rules come, the Jedi should be awesome because that's what they are.

I do want rules for Force users in the first book though. It wouldn't be Star Wars without the Force at all. Jedi =/= Force users.

I'm also wondering where the idea that it was the 'Smuggler Source Book' came from. I don't think it's intended to be 'Han Solo at Star's End: The Roleplaying Game."