So here's a question. What is FFG's official explanation for no Jedi? I heard the dev talking on the Order 66 podcast about era specific issues and how if you're doing a story in the classic trilogy you must adhere to those rules like any book, or comic or video game… But a core rule book for an rpg is a tool set for people to create their own stories, not a story unto itself, so that argument doesn't hold water for me.

People on this thread have talked about waiting to get the force rules right later on down the road as a motivation, but did the devs ever say that or is that just an assumption? Is it a licensing thing from lucasfilm to help promote 1313? Just what is it?

Whats the real reason? What's been stated?

The Jedi will be covered in the 3rd corebook, as this core book is designed around smugglers/spies/criminals/etc, and the second is focused on the Rebellion. There are, however, Force rules in this book, but probably not to the same extent as they'll be in the 3rd corebook.

There are no Jedi because the setting for this version of the RPG is the Rebellion era, around the time of the Battle of Yavin. During that time, there are basically no Jedi, according to the movies, other than Obi Wan and Yoda, and even they are weaker than they were during their peak.

If you don't want a game set in that era, then this game probably isn't for you, and I'd suggest using one of the other Star Wars RPGs until the 3rd corebook comes out in a couple of years (as it is currently scheduled). It might not hold water for you that the rules/corebook isn't meant to set what type of stories you can tell, but when the era in which the game is set basically excludes Jedi for the most part, spending time giving rules for Jedi seems counter-productive.

But here's the thing… They described the 3rd book as the book that covers "the last of the Jedi" which would seem to indicate that it, too, takes place in the rebellion era. So again, what's the deal? What's been stated?

I'm not entirely sure I'm getting what you're saying - are you asking why the Jedi aren't in this book? Or why they're leaving them until later? Could you clarify, since it's basically been stated it's because FFG want each book to focus on a different area/style of the Star Wars setting - they've said as such in their articles on the site.

At the end of the day, though, they don't really need a justification - if they want to deal with different areas of the setting separately, that's entirely as valid as lumping it all together. It also means that those of the community who don't want our players running around as Jedi don't have to pay for the rules for them if they don't want to.

Guys…this is what I'm talking about -

"Finally, in Star Wars : Force and Destiny, the players become figures of legend: the last surviving Force users in the galaxy. Hunted by the Empire, they must stay alive, and more importantly, stay true to the ideals of their forebears—the fabled Jedi.".

So Please, someone explain this all to me and no more discussion about the era please. This quote is directly from the FFG site.

Yes, we know what bit you're talking about - what's the question, though? Are you questioning why they are leaving them until later? Or why they're splitting it into 3 corebooks?

Posting to things we've seen already, and then making the post three times as long due to lots of paragraph breaks doesn't make your question any clearer.

I asked why their separating out the Jedi. You explained its because it takes place in the rebellion era and there are no Jedi. I pointed out that the Jedi book also takes place in the Rebellion era. You've explained it's because they wanted to separate it out. I'm asking why. Is playing a rebellion fighter pilot in the 2nd book so dissimilar medically than playing an Edge of the Empire character? Is a Jedi so mechanically different than any of the other characters? What of the seamless compatibility? I asked what's been stated because I honestly would like to know.

And please keep your subtle jabs to yourself. Seriously. If you find my questions bothersome then just don't answer, but you can't truly believe I would hit return 20 times just to get your attention. The Internet is an imperfect place and whatever glitch happened on my post, if it was my fault, I truly and sincerely apologize for. If it wasn't, same difference.

Their=they're

Medically=mechanically

Maybe the page breaks were my fault. My iPad is reveling in autocorrection and other weird stuff.

Splitting it in to different games really is so they have a new core book to sell every Gencon.

I don't begrudge them that, but I do think they could do… stuff to reduce the downsides of releasing it this way for the fen.

MILLANDSON said:

Yeah, I think his question was actually pretty clear. No reason to get testy.

Anyway, the reason for not including Jedi is because of setting restrictions. But I'm also not sure how they intend to make that "work" with Force and Destiny . The way the book's blurb reads, it will be Jedi during the Rebellion Era, an inherent anachronism, and the supposed reason for not including them in the first book.

I think the better question is, why did they choose to create a Star Wars RPG core rulebook that focuses only on a specific setting during a specific timeframe?

If that's truly it, then I don't see how that benefits the player base. I would indeed love it if FFG made a real case for this as to how this benefits the customer so that we could put this part of the debate to rest. I do like their base mechanics, but my goodness, if there's a book for smugglers, then rebels, then last of the Jedi in the rebellion era… What's next? Clone soldiers book, Jedi in the clone wars, then the imperial book? How many reprints of the core mechanics do we truly need?

Even if FFG would say, "hey, here's the marketing reason why we MUST do this" I'd accept that. It is a business, afterall.

Green Leader said:

That's it.

Green Leader said:

Except that's what I said, and he then just asked the question again - hence the request that the question be clarified, since either my answer wasn't for the right question, or he didn't read my post.

The answer to your question, I think, would be because they like that area of the setting, or wanted to specifically cover it. After all the prequel stuff, especially the Clone Wars series, etc, and with most of the books being released focusing either on that era or the Extended Universe (the Vong invasion, the Swarm War, the rise of Darth Caedus, etc), they might have felt like it was time that the setting be brought back to it's roots - the Rebellion Era.

As for the different books, I'd imagine it is partially for marketing reasons (more books means more money), and partially because they'd prefer to deal with each type or style of Star Wars game individually, so they can better detail each one, rather than trying to squash it all into one book. Plus, in a way, it does help the consumer - as I said, some people don't actually find the Jedi all that interesting, and this method means that an entire book can be ignored for those people, just as anyone who doesn't like the smuggler/criminal style of campaign can ignore Edge of the Empire, and anyone who doesn't want to play a game where the characters are part of the Rebellion don't have to buy the 2nd book.

Green Leader said:

The way the book's blurb reads, it will be Force users in the Rebellion Era, the "descendants," if you will, of "the fabled Jedi." So it doesn't actually go right ahead and bust canon over the head with a core rulebook.

And actually, aren't they going to be moving the timeline along with each book release? So perhaps Force and Destiny will be taking place in the time setting just after the destruction of Death Star II or something like that when it would make sense for Force users to start coming out of the woodwork.

Just spitballing there, though.

RonRamron said:

Order 66 podcast #163, beginning at 1:31:45 or so. Lead designer explains for 6 minutes why. Paraphrased: it was a conscious design decision. Each book is intended to support playing a different style of game, with a different style of story.

/end thread

Ok, but this is your supposition. It's well thought out supposition and useful to think about and I thank you for the response. However, we still don't have a clear answer from FFG and until we do, the consumer has been invited to give reaction on these boards, and until FFG says to us directly, "then don't buy it" then this is useful information for them.

What isn't useful for FFG? Forum posters criticizing other posters for asking legitimate questions. There's no place in beta testing or marketing research for that. Having had some experience in both for various parts of the entertainment industry, I can tell you this with certainty.

Listened to that part of the podcast and I just don't entirely buy into it. The obligation mechanics are great… Motivations are very cool… But does this make it worth a different book? It seems the era is defined mechanically in the book more by the elements left OUT rather than mechanics unique to the scum and villainy flavor of the book. Dig what I'm saying?

We have obligation and motivation added in. That gives it a certain flavor.

We have certain Jedi stuff left OUT and that's why we have this thread.

It's all very curious.

countrugen said:

To paraphrase Bail Organa: unfortunately, the debate isn't over.

I have listed to that episode of Order 66 a few times. This still doesn't answer the question why . Not that I'm saying that Star Wars d20 was a better system, but with each core rulebook they produced, it contained all the information needed to support different styles of gameplay and different types of story. Of course, holes had to be filled, but that's beside the point. Saying that they did this as a conscious design decision still doesn't answer the why .

Granted, I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate here because I actually don't mind the hyper focus they're applying to the game. My biggest issue in starting a new Star Wars campaign is always choosing the setting and timeframe I place it, and this basically solves that issue for me. So, thanks FFG!

But I can totally understand if some people are put off by this.

I remember a buddy of mine expressing how he regretted getting dinged in a review for a product he'd put out for missing a feature that was never part of the vision of the product… But hey, marketing research suggested the consumers wanted that feature and he'd wished they'd implemented that feature.

FFG can do what they wish, but they should go through with it with eyes wide open.

Hence the purpose for these boards.

Hell, I don't even play Jedi… But I know guys who do and that's who I'm sticking up for. These are all good questions.

Green Leader said:

He specifically answers why in that podcast segment.

I never listen to the order 66 podcast (meaning I listened intently), and I don't agree. I've even talked to people since then who also felt that a why-lynchpin was missing. We're not alone in this and arguing that we should be doesn't change the fact that FFG will eventually need to address this either with an excellent, consumer serving explanation or a slight revision in their plan.

And make no mistake, plans get revised all the time.

We all want what's best for this new game, the health of the system and for FFG which is one amazing company. …and what we're doing is helping them help us.

If you aren't going to accept their reason for leaving it out (as expressed in the podcast), keeping on asking isn't going to change the reason - and you're incorrect, they don't ever have to explain why they did it that way, or give a justification, if they don't want to, and many companies won't ever give that sort of explanation.

Either way, the decision has already been made - you might not like it, whether for yourself or in support of others, but that boat has sailed. Jedi just aren't going to be in it, whatever the reasons, until the last book. Focusing on helping in those things that are going to be in Edge of the Empire is the most constructive thing you can do now. Given that they entirely sold out of the beta books, after it being stated what was in it, they obviously can't have made that bad a decision.

You'd also be better off e-mailing them for answers to these sorts of questions - they very rarely actually reply to posts on the forum.

"Finally, in Star Wars: Force and Destiny, the players become figures of legend: the last surviving Force users in the galaxy. Hunted by the Empire, they must stay alive, and more importantly, stay true to the ideals of their forebears—the fabled Jedi.".

That actually answered a great deal for me- I hadn't come across this information before. The jedi are all DEAD, none around (sticking to the movie), and the last book is just going to deal with force users that are powerful enough to have been jedi, if they were still around.

I applaud this, though in a way I think it stinks that there are no Jedi, but it supports the movie, canon, and everything else that made the star wars story of the 70s and 80s.

As a star wars fan, I understand that Luke is the last, I would kinda be disappointed if he wasn't all the sudden because I made some jedi thats sitting in some stink hole, hiding, because thats all jedi-like, you know… to hide while millions of innocent life forms are destroyed, enslaved, and worse. Yoda, and Obi had an excuse, to watch and train Luke, the last of them.

Dulahan said:

So. Let me get this straight. Every setting can do a Han Solo-style character, but only Star Wars let you play Gandalf? Seriously?

Maybe you should worry a little less about what you can do in other settings? You can probably find just about everything somewhere else, if that's what you want. And yes, this includes Jedi/psionics/whatever you want to call it.

Seriously, when arguments boil down to "I could play a princess in any game", I really have to stop taking it seriously.

What I keep coming back to in this discussion, is where in a game about "scum and villiany" and the criminal underworld do Jedi actualy fit? Surely if they are acting as common thieves and killers they are on their way to the dark-side, and aren't really Jedi anymore, just super thugs!