I have no problem with the delay in Jedi. I applaud it. I also am in the camp of allowing Jedi to be powerful, not balanced with other professions. I've always hated balanced Jedi for an RPG. If you don't want a powerful Jedi upsetting your campaign, don't allow it. If you want a setting with players able to be Jedi, then make a campaign where multiple players can be force sensitive (renegage Jedi in hiding together) or set it during the pre-Jedi purge era.

What about a campaign where you want a mix of character archetypes without one overshadowing the other because of mechanics? Personally I would a prefer an aim of some sort of balance of abilities. It's easy enough to unbalance things if you want it that way. Much harder to reign it in when it isn't balanced. Most games are going to be with a mix of characters, both Force users and non. I don't want to deny the ability for a player to play something because I feel that it will ruin the fun of others at the table. Nor force everyone to play same type of character so they are all "equal". This shouldn't be an all or nothing situation. I want my players to dominate the table through their role-playing antics, not the mechanics of their character.

mouthymerc said:

I would much rather the game be able to reflect *everyone's* idea of Star Wars, including those that like the substantial portions of the universe that you find distasteful. I like Jedi abilities as expressed in the clone wars and the prequals, (though the movies as a whole are terrible) and even in the Force Unleashed, and would like the ruleset to allow me to represent those sorts of stories in the product that they'd like me to purchase.

Furthermore, to address a point you made earlier, they're specifically releasing the games in this format so not need to worry about balancing what is, in the opinion of many, something that fundamentally shouldn't be balanced, namely regular people and force users like a trained Jedi or Sith.

I'm not saying that your opinion is wrong, I'm simply saying that large portions of the Star Wars universe reflect Jedi as potent in a fashion that other people quite enjoy and that it should be represented because of that, especially when it occupies the vast majority of the Star Wars universe.

Edit :

Oh, and Donovan, a thought occurred to me in relation to the Timothy Zahn books. While he may not have focused on acrobatic combat, the force users in the Heir to the Empire novels were unbelievably potent. Luke easily kills six Noghri with a single toss of his lightsaber without even being able to see them, and Jorus C'Boath manages to bend the crews of whole star ships to his will, turning them into little more than puppets, while controlling battles occurring in multiple star systems simultaneously. Given the choice between how Jedi are represented from a functional game mechanics sense I'd likely pick the Clone Wars representations every time as they'd likely be easier to deal with. That said, the books were truly excellent and I enjoyed Zahn's portrayal of force users.

Chrislee66 said:

Nothing wrong with that. Jedi are the ubermen of the Star Wars universe due very much to the EU. And they have many fans because of that. I have no doubt we shall see that in the game as that is what's popular. I would just prefer things to lean more towards balance than not. As I said, it is much easier to unbalance things if you wish than to gain balance. So maybe balance things as well as you can, and add in sidebars on giving more power in one form or another. Pretty easy to do so, just hand out more XP to Jedi characters and they can be as uber as you want them to be.

mouthymerc said:

I'd personally rather the game properly represent the source material first and foremost, with balance coming in side panels. *grins*

Chrislee66 said:

Luke one-shotting several Noghri isn't that big a deal (they were likely a group of minions, and he's undoubtedly good enough to role enough advantage to score a few extra critical hits by that point), at least not compared to ripping holes in the fabric of space (Palps in Dark Empire) or rebuilding a massive palace with just telekinesis (Luke in one of the New Republic EU books). Perhaps the GM simply allowed Luke to use the Breach quality of his lightsaber for a Move Attack with several Magnitude Upgrades included, as 5 damage is enough to drop most minions and if they don't get a Soak Value besides, and it sounded like something cool that you'd expect a Jedi Knight to pull off.

Even C'Boath's trick took every ounce of effort and concentration, something that Thrawn duly noted when the insane Jedi Master threatened a mutiny, and that itself had a marginal basis in the films, with Palpatine's death aboard the second Death Star somehow turning the tide of the Battle of Endor, that itself being an explanation that I myself don't entirely agree with (what, the Rebels couldn't have proven their mettle and turned the tide of the battle based on their own skill and courage?), but that's a personal reservation. And besides, C'Boath was a very old and experienced Jedi Master , and it's not something we've really seen on such a grand scale since then, so that can probably be put into the realm of GM fiat since it didn't directly affect the players in that adventure (aka the Heroes of Yavin), ultimately being a hand-wave for why the Imperials started being a lot more deadly as opposed to being a bunch of Spaceballs.

The Clone Wars 3D series is generally pretty good about Force usage, not having the over-the-top stuff of the 2D mini-series put in the hands of your average Force-user. Big guns like Yoda doing nigh-impossible stuff is generally okay, as he's Yoda, and after 800+ years of being a Jedi, he should be significantly more powerful than your average Force-user by virtue of extensive practice and understanding, while Sidious and Dooku are the Major Villains and should be allowed to "cheat" to an extent; maybe not to "new powers as plot demands" levels but being easily capable of pulling off feats of Force-usage that the PCs generally have trouble accomplishing.

Personal opinion, but I would be against any of the uber-Force powers that show up in EU. Hopefully that stuff is reserved for a supplement if it must be included and doesn't upset the basic Force system to allow it to exist. I'm not much of an EU fan, especially when it comes to the Force.

Sturn said:

I would imagine that if it shows up at all, the earliest we'd see it would be Force & Destiny.

The EU can be extremely hit or miss, and not only in terms of the Force. Case in point, Mandalorians as penned by Karen Traviss. Some folks love what she's done, some hate her for trying to turn Mandos into a culture of Mary Sues. Or hell, the Yuuzhan Vong, a race more divisive amidst the Star Wars fanbase than Ewoks and Gungans combined .

Donovan Morningfire said:

True. I'll be interested to see the progression through the Rebellion book to F&D.

Donovan Morningfire said:

I think even before Karen Traviss there was already a huge mystique around Mandalorians that was created through Boba Fett. She just fulfilled what many people were wishing for or picturing. What I find humorous is that technically Boba Fett died in RotJ. But those few scenes of him in ESB and RotJ in that armor made such an impression as to catapult him into fame. He returned in the EU and with his return so did the Mandalorions return. As you say, hit or miss for many. Personally I am not a fan of much of the EU. Only read some books, enjoy the Star Wars: Legacy line of comics, played some video games (Lego star Wars for the win!), but for the most part much of it doesn't impress me.

Never read any of the books containing the Yuuzhon Vong but have learned about them reading up on them. I don't particularly care about them one way or another even though they seem to have been created to specifically oppose Force users. I do like the concept that was originally put forth for them, being lost Sith returning to the galaxy. I did something similar and used the Githyanki War supplement put out in Dragon/Dungeon as a basis to create the opponents many moons ago. Might dig it out once we have more books out.

You know, I think probably the easiest thing for the writers of Force and Destiny (that is what the book's gonna be named, right? Can't remember off the top of my head) to do would be basically to put in everything - from mild to mega Force powers, but make them as modular as possible, even within themselves, such that Game Officials and Players can go through, decide for themselves what they want to appear in the game and put the rest aside.

Honestly, this game seems more collaborative than any SW game that's come before it, so it seems only natural that the rules should be customizable beyond what anyone could normally do with quick wit.

At the end of the day, I would much rather have the option of over the top Force Powers statted out and ready to use than not have them and have to cook them up myself for an over the top campaign if the players suddenly want one.