Sounds good to me Rich, frankly I'm a little surprised that something of the sort hasn't occurred yet…

Boromir for me.

spalanzani said:

What a pity that Tolkien did not give more love to the evil characters. If his work was less good biased, I would like it even more.

klaymen_sk said:

i think this is where tolkien's beauty lies- in his evil characters. unlike many fantasy authors after him, tolkien made his evil characters lie 'in the dark' as it were….you never see sauron, and saruman is just a name up until his downfall in isengard in flotsam and jetsam (or is it the palantir?)…this way you can really feel their eyes on you as you walk with the company through the wilds, and in the case of saruman when you actually see him in the flesh, it makes it all the more ominous

rich

klaymen_sk said:

absolutely, while his work is very good he complete lack of even attempting to have motive for his villains makes hsi works very 2 dimensional .. as there is no depth to much of teh work. While teh hero toons are very well done, i find the entire "They're evil, thats why!!" explanation for everything to be ridiculous.

richsabre said:

Ted Sandyman said:

As I think another has mentioned somewhere, I really think that Lore Aragorn is meant to be "Strider" (it's the ART!!!)

I really like Mim the Dwarf, from the childeren of Hurin. He makes the story more stoumachable. I also like the hasty ent that befriends Merry and Pippin. Of the races I love the stories of treebeard that the he, at first sometime did nothing but breathing for weeks on end. I like the meditation like stories of the Pukel- men (perhaps mistranslated from dutch; Ghan-buri-Ghan's people) as well. Of the languages i really like Valarin.

I really like Mim the Dwarf, from the childeren of Hurin. He makes the story more stoumachable. I also like the hasty ent that befriends Merry and Pippin. Of the races I love the stories of treebeard that the he, at first sometime did nothing but breathing for weeks on end. I like the meditation like stories of the Pukel- men (perhaps mistranslated from dutch; Ghan-buri-Ghan's people) as well. Of the languages i really like Valarin.

interesting choices there and nice to see some of the lesser known characters get some love

rich

Haha searching through the forums and found this topic. Kinda late but my favorite is:

Haldir - I like how he comes to help the people at Helm's Deep with his small army of elves. I really love charcters that are not the main people but still have some important roll. I think Haldir fits this perfectly. (oh and I aslo liked the actor for him in the movie)

Khamul - Of course. Khamul comes in second. Lots of people mistake pronouncing his name and think its pronounced Camel. Its really pronounced camool but I cant put the little mark over the "u" that makes the "u" say "U" in these forums. (Well maybe i can but im not going to find out now) I really like him because he is the only named Nazgul and he also has some history too. He is the second in command of the Nazgul and takes over for the rather short period of time after the witch king dies.

Khamul

Khamul The Easterling said:

ah….old times haha

i really liked haldir in the books but not in the films…i didnt like that jackson had them turn up at helms deep (i know this is a sore point for many fans) ….i do however like his death (not in that way haha). no, his death in the films is a well acted scene with great music.

i think khamul is a great character by default….given how much i love the wraiths. i think im correct in remembering he was in charge of dol guldur when the necromancer wasnt around?

rich

Ooh, I love lore topics. So hard to narrow it down, but I have to say Boromir for his flaws, sacrifice, and ultimate repentance. Another one I like, and this might be an odd pick, is Barliman Butterbur. He's just a forgetful old innkeeper, but he was brave in his own sort of way, and tried to help. More importantly, reading the Prancing Pony chapter recently, I was struck at how alive Bree felt compared to the depiction in the movies (alive isn't quite the right word, but it's the closest I can get). I'm not a "movie hater" by any means, but I feel like the Middle-Earth in the books feels a bit more "lived in" by people than the one in the movies.

Going outside LOTR, one of my favorite characters is Ungoliant. The idea of this creature coming down from the Void and having a mysterious origin, and feeding off light is very intriguing. Also Beren (and his dad Barahir), particularly the story of their time as the outlaws of Dorthonion and being the last men in the region and waylaying orcs when they were able.

Yes Correct! Khamul stayed at Dol Guldur for a while. I found it so interesting that while Frodo was doing all his journeys and everything was happening in the 2nd and third books, Dol Guldur sieged Lorien and King Thuranduil's fortresseshidouts. They should make a movie of that. Or a book or something. When I learned that I wanted to know all the details and stuff of those sieges.

booored said:

I totally sympathize with what you guys are saying, but I'm tempted to say that our desire for villains with back stories and complex motivations comes from a very modern place. Tolkien was writing from a place that was inspired by older stories where no one asked for or wanted a psychoanalysis of Grendel in Beowulf, for example. His themes are very clear and the villains do have motivations, they are just very simple and clear-cut. Sauron, like his old master Morgoth, wants dominion and control over the world and all living things. Going further back in the story, Sauron was said to be very concerned with order, and I think his desire for control really came from a place of thinking he could make things nice and tidy and orderly under his iron rule, and if he could get rid of the pesky chaos brought out by "free will". I think Saruman really reflects this type of thinking himself in his speech to Gandalf where he is trying to convince him to ally with Sauron, and says that together they can bring order and knowledge to the chaotic rabble. So in my opinion, the motivations are there and make logical sense (and certainly exist in the real world) and they tie directly into Tolkien's main themes, even though they might grate on our modern sensibilities. Hopefully this rambling makes some sense.

Raven1015 said:

from a time when some fantasy novels attempt to weave dozens of plotlines into one 1000 page book, 12 book series that could be used to sink ships, i find tolkiens clear cut approach refreshing.

also the silmarillion was far less so than the later works…the characters morals and ambitions in that book was less clear cut…but it worked in that case, making it a very sad, epic story

rich

ps. and yeah…i miss the lore talks on here… unfortunatly i dont have time for my tolkienology series, that used to generate some great discussions from the lore orientated players

Boromir. He is just a man. He is a real one.

Sure Sauron himself. He is most interesting charachter. He stand alone against everyone!

And of course Gandalf!!! He is the best!

1st Feanor all the way

2nd Beorn, i love the Hero card too

3rd Gandalf, how can anyone not love Gandalf ?

iznax said:

I despise Gandalf. With passion.
None of his plans makes any kind of sense.

Need to defend against easterling threat while getting rid of last fire breathing dragon?
Why not send thirteen idiotic prideful dwarves and a hobbit that can barely survive the journey itself let alone kill a dragon.

Even though there was CLEARLY no way in hell they would've been able to deal with the dragon, SOMEHOW it will work out.

Finally realized Bilbo/Frodo's golden ring was Sauron's One Ring?
Instead of urging Frodo to take the ring to Rivendell as soon as possible, let's waste Spring and Summer and depart in September!

Surely Fall and Winter is preferrable season than Spring or Summer for a Hobbit to cross-country Wilderland while carrying the One Ring.

At Elrond's Council? Need to deal with the Ring?
Let's simply walk to Mordor!

Enemy will expect us to take the Ring to Grey Heaven, so path to Mordor must be safer than path to west. I mean every entrance is only guarded by sone orcs and evil will of Sauron that does not sleep. Sending the One Ring to Mordor in a hand of halfing sounds like perfectly fine idea.

Even though Gandalf wouldn't share how he intends on entering Mordor, not even to Frodo or Aragorn(as a result he has no idea where to go after Gandalf falls), everyone who suggests to take the Ring to West or (god forbid) to hide it are all idiotic fools… right?

Oh and don't forget to scold the guy who have been fighting a long lost war for his entire life.
Gondor has kept force of Mordor at bay for so long, but what does Gandalf do? Oh yeah, treat Denethor like an idiot for putting best interest of his people (Gondorians) first.
Gandalf acts as if Gondor was finally going to get some bloody help from those holier-than-thou elves or stinking dwarves. But what happens?
Oh yeah, he used Gondor(Denethor) as shield against Mordor (Pelennor field was won by 2 elves, handful of Northern Dunedain, but mostly by blood of Gondor and Rohan which are allies of Gondor) while trying to usurp the throne of Gondor using heir of Isildur (who had no right to Kingship of Gondor whatsoever. Aragorn's ancestor who had much better claim got rejected on the basis of only male descendent of Anarion may be King of Gondor).

Good grief, no wonder Denethor kills himself. Sauron's forces everywhere while so-called allies trying to usurp Gondor's seat of power (and they succeeded too).

Although I must admit, my hatred of Gandalf is probably due to me favouring Saruman and Denethor. (For the same reason I hate Gandalf, I hate Aragorn also).

I just don't like it when so-called 'destined' characters comes in and takes everything deligent characters worked so hard for so long.

Even though I just listed whole page about why I hate Gandalf, in his defence, he was maia of dream and vision and probably saw or knew things he himself did not even fully comprehend but trusted his instincts anyways.

that is one hell of a post ellareth

i think your last sentence probably answered most of your points though. i had a post about gandalfs intentions to enter morder, and i admit if i were able to ask tolkien one thing (perhaps apart from another prequel to the trilogy) it would be what exactly he expected to do when he got to mordor….i mean i have read some of the discarded drafts in the histories and i cant remember him ever having any proper plans for it….though i may be wrong as i havnt read all the histories.

but yes, the ways of the maia are mysterious……and in his defense he did send message to frodo to depart earlier but that daft old bugger butterbur forgot…so id say blame him haha

i actually felt the same about the elves as you do gandalf….that is before i read the simarillion. i used to think….what??!! middle earth is doomed and what are they doing?? just buggering off into the west

then i of course realised they had had 2 ages of the earth fighting evil..i guess everyone gets tire eventually

rich

Wow, that's certainly a new perspective on Gandalf! I want to respond to some of your points, Ellareth, not in order to "prove you wrong", because I think these points are truly a matter of how you look at it and how you interpret actions, and there is no "wrong" in that sense. Moreso, I just think there's some good discussion fodder in there that I want to engage with.

- Gandalf and the quest for Erebor: On this point, I can't really dispute your assessment. The whole plan always struck me as a bit crazy, at least when I read the Hobbit for the first time as an adult. They traveled all the way to Smaug's doorstep without having the slightest clue how they were going to get rid of the dragon. In fact, they seemed a bit confused as to whether this was just treasure recovery or home recovery as well. You would hope that maybe Gandalf could give Thorin some advice or at least press the Dwarves to formulate an action plan. I guess you really have to attribute his faith in the quest to intuition, as you said. I have to ask, does Gandalf have a large amount of foreknowledge that he doesn't share with people? Or is he guided by impulses that he himself does not fully understand?

- Elrond council plan: I get the sense that Gandalf wanted to make an end of Sauron once and for all, and so he tried to guide the discussion to that end, speaking against all other options. I think when you put everything in the context of the events of all three ages, and the general waning of power of the "free peoples", Gandalf probably felt that there was no way that Sauron could be defeated conventionally, as he was in the Second Age (at great cost), as that level of power did not exist anymore, and certainly he probably had in mind the fact that the defeat of Sauron's mentor, Morgoth, at the end of the First Age required the intervention of the godlike Valar, which again was no longer a possibility. In this light, the only possible way to beat Sauron would be to destroy the ring. All other options would simply lead to eventual defeat, including trying to send it away. So even though the trip to Mordor was pretty much a suicide mission with little chance of success, I imagine it seemed like the only course of action in Gandalf's eyes.

You're right though, not sharing his ultimate plan for getting into Mordor, especially since he was highly aware of the dangers of the road, especially once they chose to go into Moria, is hard to understand. I'm tempted to say that Gandalf didn't have a plan. Perhaps he hoped to find guidance or inspiration along the way.

- Gondor: Yeah, I have to admit that Aragorn's destiny and his "return" to kingship is probably one of my least favorite aspects of the story. Denethor's great crime, in Gandalf's eyes, was in his desire to use the ring as a weapon and his willingness to use compromised means (the palantir) to fight Sauron. While I think we can easily sympathize with Denethor's desire to defend Gondor at all costs, I'm sure Gandalf has in mind past figures who confronted the Enemy with a drive to power and disunity (Feanor, Feanor's sons, Thingol, etc.). I feel like Gandalf is confronting more the shadow of what he feels Denethor will become rather than strictly who he is at that moment.

Raven1015 said:

i have always held the belief gandalf knew a whole lot more of what was going on in the hobbit than he let on, even afterwards. obviously the events were a key turning point in the 3rd age with the finding of the ring and the re establishment of the dwarf kingdom of erebor, but i really do think that gandalf at least had an idea that these thing were going to happen.

this sort of makes things make sense. i think also that gandalf is hesitant to give the dwarves advice as it is their quest, not his as he states several times throughout the hobbit, especially when he leaves them. i think he also wants the dwarves to succeed on their own doing rather than with his direct help…..and i think this shows the whole 'istari not being able to contest sauron directly power for power,'

not only that i think that dwarves learn a key lesson in the free peoples of middle earth. the whole scenario of the five armies at the end shows how powerful the elves men and dwarves can be if they stand together, and forget their differences as happened with the argument over the gold and capture of the company in mirkwood. this is obviously in gandalf's interests if he is to rally middle earth in what he must then know was an inevitable war of the ring (well perhaps not the ring, but im sure he knew a war was coming), infact the battle of 5 armies is almost like a rehersal for the war of the ring, making sure that the free peoples of middle earth can unite when the need is there.

i am always unsure about why he never shared his plans on getting into mordor, as i said in my last post, i would love to know that more than anything else (perhaps apart from who bombadil was)….but i think this all comes down to gandalf trusting…..or perhaps, as i say above, knowing would be a better word, though im not quite sure knowing is the correct word. he perhaps feels what must be done, even if that seems suicidal…..and it all works out in the end, all these events link together, success after another……bilbo, a shy hobbit, manages to find the one ring (a million to one shot) and then manages to take it into relative safe keeping until frodo can come along, a strong willed hobbit, some might say the only hobbit, who can destroy it….he then manages to make it all the way to rivendell where his companions team up (another uniting of the free peoples) and they each go to their destiny..

im not a believer of destiny in 'real life' but i do believe that in middle earth it was a thing of reality, and that at least makes some of the crazier things make sense

so yes, those are my thoughts….keep up this discussion, its nice to have the debate!

rich

richsabre said:

Perhaps we should start a new one.
It wasn't my intention to hijack this thread and go completely off topic, but I couldn't stop the urge to speak against Gandalf when I saw the chance.

Of course being in a Fantasy setting almost everyone of his actions are completely justifiable esepcailly given that his domain was fair, dreamy visions and phantasy and his task was to inspire and unite free people against Sauron without commanding/ruling them or giving them specific orders.

It's just that I like Denethor so much to a point where I've come to share his hatred of Gandalf and Aragorn, and see them from his point of view almost.
Also more I get to know about Saruman, more I understand why he was jealous of Gandalf, and I kind'a start to hate Gandalf too (even though none of the things that happened made Saruman jealous of Gandalf were Gandalf's fault).

Edit: Oh wait, nvm. Just realized YOU were the OP.

Interesting. I have only seen a couple of posts but I'm going to add on Denethor; he's also my favourite character - one of them, of course. And I don't want to go sideways even more but that was probably a single worst thing about the movies (which I otherwise really enjoy), making the great character a poor and simple one. However, my appreciation of Denethor has never lead me to like Gandalf any less. If I had to choose, it would have to be Gandalf I enjoy more reading about but I can never get enough of those great pages from Minas Tirith; Denethor and Boromir are two characters that really make the Lord of the Rings even more special to me.

richsabre said:

It strikes me that Gandalf didn't seem very surprised when Bolg and the orc army show up to kick off the Battle of Five Armies. So you may be right that he knew far more than he let on. What is astounding about the quest for Erebor and the successful defeat of Smaug is that it hinged on Bilbo finding the weak spot, the dragon being flushed out (because I doubt the Dwarves themselves could've made use of the weak spot), then this being communicated to someone in Lake-Town who would be able to make use of it, and then a one-in-a-million shot from Bard to finish the deed. Whew! Again, either Gandalf had some level of foreknowledge that something like this would happen as long as he got the wheels in motion, or he just had an amazing level of faith.

Now that I've pondered more about Gandalf, him not giving advice to the Dwarves actually does make sense. Gandalf is not really a strategist, or a great warrior, or as much a master of lore as Saruman, or anything else that we associate with the powerful. His skill is in inspiring people and bringing unity and hope. The rest is up to the people involved themselves. But Ellareth's point is fair that to the people involved in those schemes, like Denethor, Gandalf's approach must have seemed absolutely maddening, mystifying, and slightly hare-brained at times.

Final point, back to the Council of Elrond and the plan to take the ring to Mordor. Thinking about Gandalf as someone who learned from Nienna (the Valar associated with grief, sorrow, and strength/hope through suffering), it makes sense that he would choose the hardest road, or at least, would not shy away from the hardest road, knowing that the greatest victory must come from the greatest sorrow. And given the nature of the ring, it had be a humble, unimportant person with little power (in the traditional sense) to carry it.

P.S. I agree about Denethor's depiction in the movies. A boatload of nuance was removed from the character, and he was converted into an absolute villain.

Ellareth said:

The exact same thing happens to me with Boromir, it's pretty strange, but awesome too,