i actually found aragorn to be much more humble in the film compared to the books…..he was rather more 'kingly' in the books….which isnt surprising given he was haha….but its interesting to see it work the other way round compared to say denethor

rich

Ellareth said:

no problem, not hijacking at all. it was my intention to have a sort of weakly lore thread, though it died out. if there is interest i wouldnt mind trying again

rich

I love the idea of a weekly lore thread. One question I sometimes throw around in my head is possible alternatives of what to do with the ring if taking it to Mordor wasn't an option (and leaving aside those directly mentioned in the book or the popular "let the Eagles fly it there" scenario).

Raven1015 said:

thats a great topic to mention….i think at some point i had a tolkienology chapter that mentioned it…though i cant remember which one

i really dislike the 'let the eagles do it' thing……i actually did some research into why it wouldnt be possible in case i ever came across someone who asked me that (i like to be prepared)…i mean there are obviouis things such as the eagles not being under anyones particular control and the fact they would have thousands of archers and winged nazgul after them…but i found a source who said the actually peak of mnt doom didnt actually fall directly into the cracks of doom….now i cant remember how correct this was but i feel like it isnt really needed as the idea fails on the previous point i state.

as for other ideas, the council of elrond suggested leaving it in the western sea if i remember correctly, however the idea was rejected due to it not being permanent. then you had of course keeping it in rivendell or even bombadil keeping it, though again it was stated even bombadil coulntt (or more likely wouldnt) stand against the might of mordor

either way thanks for the support of the lore thread, its great to have some in depth discussion to look forward to

rich

The idea of Eagles flying to Mordor is quite absurd, I cannot imagine any Tolkien fan being naive enough to actually think it a solid plan.

richsabre said:

I can see why people bring up the eagles possibility. It does seem to make a lot of sense, but only if you look at it from a certain point of view. I also don't like the eagles option either. One of the things I brought up in another similar discussion elsewhere, other than the usual arguments (they could be shot down, eagles aren't a "taxi service", etc.) is the likelihood that Sauron had servants (including those that could fly) watching the movements of the eagles at all times. As soon as they took flight in the general direction of Mordor, and as soon as they were spotted bearing a hobbit, Sauron would be all over that. One person wrote about the possibility of the eagles flying separately from the fellowship, meeting them near the northern border of Mordor, then Frodo hopping on and popping over the mountains before anyone could do anything about it. Again, I think this is easier said than done. I also think it's important to remember that much more so than any of the other inhabitants of Middle-Earth at the time, save perhaps Gandalf, the eagles are servants of the Valar (Manwe specifically). It seems likely that they are not inclined to direct interference in matters until they become truly desperate.

That's interesting about the peak of mount doom not aligning directly with the cracks, i hadn't heard that before.

One other option I remember from the council is sending the ring west on a ship to Valinor. I don't remember the exact quote, but I believe it was either Gandalf or Elrond who said something about it not being accepted there, and that the powers there would not take part in the affairs of Middle-Earth. Interesting also that there wasn't a mention of possibly giving the ring to Galadriel. I don't think she would be more able to withstand Mordor than Elrond or Bombadil, but it is an interesting omission, particularly as she is the oldest of the Eldar still in Middle-Earth. Anyway, it still seems that all other options were moot, as without actually destroying the ring, Sauron would probably have been able to win conventionally.

Dear god am I loving these discussions!

Rich, I would love a periodic Tolkien Lore discussions. Weekly sounds good, or however often previous thread sort of 'dies out'. I would assume there are others with same mind, but if not, atleast you will have my support <3.

As for the Eagles flying to Mordor, it was definitely a plothole in the movie.
In the movies (Hobbits included), they come and go whenever Gandalf called them via moss Mt.Doom clearly had visible opening from top, and there were no turrets or towers high enough for Orcs to fire arrow at them. I assume most people who says 'they should've gone with Eagle' are the ones who have only seen the movie.

However, like the rest of you guys, Eagle was not the option in the book for the reasons already stated. I mean they feared to go hunting because of some woodmen's bow. Can't imagine any of eagles breaking through whatever defence Sauron has (even the mountains are protected by invisible will)

So what to do with the One Ring if not to destroy it?
To me, only logical thing to do is to hide it in the last line of defence against Sauron.

For Denethor, it was Minas Tirith (Ithilien, Osgiliath and Rammas Echor being frontal lines). However, as much as I like Denethor, I must disagree and say entire Gondor is but first line of defence in reality.
Last line of defence against Sauron is probably Mithlond, the Grey Heaven.
Which makes perfect sense because you can atleast prevent Sauron from gaining One Ring (thus making it easier for hosts from Valinor to retake Middle-Earth from Sauron) by shipping the Ring to Valinor. If Valars would not have the Ring near their lands, atleast you can cast it into the Ocean and buy yourself extra couple centuries (maybe millenias).

Now, Gandalf said sending to Valinor or casting into Ocean wasn't an option because it wouldn't be a permanent solution. Sauron would return sooner or later and they must act for future as well.
I say there is no permanent solution to evil, with or without Sauron evil will always return in one form or another and Gandalf is only interested in 'defeating' Sauron because that is his assignment from Valar.

thanks ellareth…..i really feel these discussions are breathing a new form of life into this forum! (and i take no credit for doing that….a thread's only as good as its posters )

i shall start thinking of threads for next week, if anyone has any ideas just post them here. i really like 'what if' scenarios, but they do tend to get rather out of hand on the reality side of things, but its nice to dwell on what coud of happened in midde earth as opposed to what did happen

i like your comment about there being no permanent end to the evil in middle earth….and given that middle earth is now this earth we can see this most certainly holds true.

i think if the free peoples had done anything other than destroy it though, mr sauron would still be in his seat in barad dur, and we'd all be talking the black tongue.

i see it that sauron was completely able to take over middle earth without the control of the ring, but in the end im sure he would have gotten the information out of some poor person he captured as to where the ring was. once he had that then its game over………but as you say, the valar could easily overthrow him again an re take middle earth, i wonder just how far they were willing to let things go before they intervened? i mean sure, they were worried a replay of the 1st age may happen hence the istari, but im pretty sure that they wouldnt have just gone…..'oh bugger it, we messed up with just sending some maia…..4 of whom were utter rubbish at their job, lets just ignore that rather big blight on the earth'

still it wouldnt be the first time. the elves were pretty much doing that by leaving middle earth….i used to hate them for that, but i see that it was the 'time of men' and tolkien was particularly insistent that men would win over by themselves (with a little help from the elves and dwarves in taking down dol guldur and gundabad.) ….thats probably what annoys so many people with haldir turning up at helms deep…..but in the films defense they were pretty aweful fighters…..though i suppose that isnt a good thing given they're the elite of middle earth.

mmmmm……interesting discussion indeed!

rich

Yes, certainly not the end of evil itself, but at least the end of a Morgoth/Sauron figure in Middle Earth pulling the strings of evil, as it were. From then on, it would be up to men to do evil all by themselves. Here's Tolkien's letter about a proposed sequel to Lord of the Rings, which he quickly scrapped:

"I did begin a story placed about 100 years after the Downfall, but it proved both sinister and depressing. Since we are dealing with Men, it is inevitable that we should be concerned with the most regrettable feature of their nature: their quick satiety with good. So that the people of Gondor in times of peace, justice and prosperity, would become discontented and restless — while the dynasts descended from Aragorn would become just kings and governors — like Denethor or worse. I found that even so early there was an outcrop of revolutionary plots, about a centre of secret Satanistic religion; while Gondorian boys were playing at being Orcs and going around doing damage. I could have written a 'thriller' about the plot and its discovery and overthrow — but it would have been just that. Not worth doing."

?The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter 256

"like Denethor or worse." An interesting quote from the man himself. He didn't have too much reverence for the guy.

yeah ive seen that draft idea before…….im actually pleased he didnt do it (did i just say im pleased tolkien didnt write something???)

i dont know, im pleased with the way middle earth stands…

GrandSpleen said:

Denethor had none of those humbleness and full of pride, kind of like Feanor or Ar-Parazon (but obviously to lesser degress). I could see that as being 'bad' trait, but that remark does surprise me. I gotta get that letter collection book one of these days as I am clearly missing out on chunks of informations.

And Valar forsaking Middle-Earth is a possibility. In fact Sauron convinced himself that Valar were done with Middle-Earth after reshaping of Arda. That the physical seperation of Valinor from rest of the world was a sign that Iluvatar himself does not wish for Valar to interfere and that he(Sauron) could get away with anything as long as it didn't effect Valinor.

After all, most of Valar (except one or two, most notably Yavana), were content enough to let Melkor rule Middle-Earth for god knows how long until very last moment when they had to fight Melkor because Elves woke up. There may have been no Orcs at all if Valar had just dealt with Melkor few decades earlier instead of procrastinating for so long, if If we take the theory of Orcs being distorted Elves to be true. I mean while Melkor was fortifying himself, raising Iron Mountains and building armies of Ainur and evil creatures, host of Valar just sing songs or dance or feast or simply day dream in gardens of Lorien.

Ellareth, I too sometimes wonder about the ability of Valar to simply ignore stuff happenning elsewhere. But it is a great piece of literature in itself, much like much that Tolkien writes, it reflects what is going on in our world perfectly. Even the best of people on Earth just try to ingnore what is going on in variety of places, knowing it is all bad terrible; and that includes people who could actually make a difference.

Since Raven mentioned the work Tolkien started about the Fourth Age. There is a chapter of it in one of the History of Middle-earth (I think it called Peoples of Middle-earth). It is a great read, despite being so brief. I loved the darkening atmosphere of it, and I'm sure Tolkien would have come up with a bunch of great characters - like Denethor, or even better.

If I remember right, I think the Valar didn't fight Melkor for a long time because they were scared that they would accidentally destroy the Elves if they battled him, because they didn't know where and when exactly they would show up. Still doesn't mean they couldn't have done something, but there is some logic to it.

The separation after the fall of Numenor could perhaps be framed as Men turning away from the Valar, rather than the Valar turning away from Man (landing ships at Valinor in an attempted invasion is audacious indeed!).

Finally, sending the Istari at least was an attempt to intervene and defeat Sauron. And we have to say it was successful, thanks to at least one of them turning out to be useful! With the end of the Third Age and the beginning of the Fourth Age came the rise of the Dominion of Men, which was supposed to be the time that the Valar knew the least about, which might mean that they didn't really feel as confident in intervening as they did previously. Just some random thoughts…

Yeah, makes sense. And I wasn't saying that meddling in affairs of others is always (or perhaps not even often) a good thing…

Gandalf, Frodo, Gimli, Legolas. I love Gandalf for the same reasons you cited, Rich. He is THE wizard that comes to my mind when thinking about the Fantasy Genre. Frodo is a hobbit, enough said there. Gimli: he's a dwarf, I love dwarves, and I love Gimli. Legolas, he's an elf, I love elves, and he's an elf. I really like the relationship Gimli and Legolas have throughout the books.

Great question, Rich!

Raven1015 said:

yeah, when i posted about the istari messing up, i forgot that tolkien ended up saying that the blue wizards probably did help in the east, as opposed to them creating cults and so on as he previously stated

and with radagast being centered on the more nature side of things (i guess with all the fighting somone had to) i would agree that 4/5 is very successful indeed….and saruman only really messed up at the last moment

i also agree with those who like saruman. again the films make him out to be a coward who turns sides…..but as those who have read the books will know, he was just trying to bring order and peace to middle earth in his own way (and his methods more than likely had a lot do with his serving aule)

@durin, thanks for joining!

rich

I enjoy reading about Saruman too, as it is intriguing, again a great character, but if I was to name the most evil one, it'd be without a doubt Saruman (and of course this has nothing to do with movies). It is in the discussion with Gandalf where I see one of the greatest gifts of Tolkien's philosophy, Saruman is all science and invention, no matter the cost, and Gandalf states the famous "He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom." One can also see why Ents are so essential to the story.

lleimmoen said:

as a physics student i can relate to this totally