One of the upgrades for the Move power is the ability to hurl objects at your opponents. The description lists how damage is calculated for this. My question is: do you have to roll to hit your opponent? and if so what skill/ability to do you roll? If not, does using the power mean you automatically hit your opponent provided that the target is in the range band your force weilding character can effect?

Example, I experimented with a Human Force Exile character that maxed out the move force talent tree. (grabbed extra obligation) He can move objects up to size 4 in a medium range band or closer. He also has the upgrade to pull secured objects or objects from opponents' grips and he hurl objects at high speed for damage. The scenario where our hero is in a warehouse full of crates being ambushed by gang of thugs, first turn he maneuvers to covers to spends an action pull a blaster from a thug (don't bother buying a starting weapon).

He rolls a force die and on any light side result he succeeds? If the target is in Medium range or closer does he even need light side result to succeed? If he rolls a dark side result he can spend a light side destiny point and convert the force die result? Nothing the thug can do. On his second turn he Force Moves a crate (size 3 or 4) and hurls into another thug, rolling a Force die to determine damage (minimum 40 with a size 4 crate?) If the can effect two objects at the same time can he target two thugs each with a crate? Every turn he smashs a thug without having to roll successes or risk threats/despair?

Am I missing something here, that's seem awful powerful? I understand that if this character is using the Force that much he'll be found out and the Empire will park a fleet of Star Destroyers in every system he goes. But, I talking more about a rule mechanic issue. This seems like this character can derail a important/challenging climatic fight pretty easily.

I can post the stats and XP spend for the starting character if there is a question about that.

There's a lot of discussion about this very thing in the Game Mechanics sub-forum.

:Edit:

Here is a link to the general Force Feedback Thread

Here is a link to the Force Use Thread

Callidon said:

You ain't kidding.

So is there a general consensus of whats to be done or an official ruling/clarification on this. Should I just keep my players clear of it for now?

General consensus last time I checked is yes, it is quite powerful. RAW, you should keep your players away from it.

Honestly, its not a bad idea anyway, given that this system is best intended for non Force users and all.

schi0384 said:

There's nothing even close to a consensual conclusion. Heck, there are people who are saying "Problem? What problem?"

And the webpage for the Week 1 Beta update just said "we know it's a problem and we're working on it."

In that light, you're probably better off not letting your players advance past the first tier of 5 XP upgrades, since the power's not a problem up to that point. It's only when you get the ability to attack people with Move that the worms explode out of their can.

On a related note, you're also better off not letting them take that first Control Upgrade for Influence as well, as that's a substantial can of worms in its own right.

KommissarK said:

Actually, you should make sure your players try it out. Then watch to see if it breaks and provide feedback.

Avoiding things that look troubling in a beta won't help us get a refined final product. Theory-crafting will only get us so far.

I didn't even notice the lack of resistance for Influence on my first read through. Yikes. Thanks for the heads up.

I guess I was wondering if there was a house rule that everyone was using that seemed to work out in the mean time.

I don't need to play test the Forces powers as is to know that they are broken and I don't want something so obviously broken wrecking our first play-test session.

My players and I will definitely discuss Force Powers and how they would write them, maybe draft a house rule or two and play test those. I post on that later.

Luckily for the beta, there is so much to else to play as and play with that not being Jedi or Force sensitive won't ruin the game.

schi0384 said:

Oh, there are plenty of house rule suggestions, from opposed rolls to requiring skill checks to monkeying with the Force Point costs based on several different methods.

If and when you do read the Force Mechanics thread, grab yourself a bowl of popcorn because there's quite a lot of reading involved.

Doc, the Weasel said:

I would disagree with this notion on the premise that I feel that we need to be testing the game as a whole, not individual piece parts. Instead of trying to create some outlandish situation, just start with normal, organic play. What is key is sussing out any problems the average group is going to come across, not trying to balance out every single minor rule (as that is impossible). Force powers are not something the average group should be coming across in EotE.

Handing out Force Powers to players with the sole intent of "seeing if it breaks the game" seems very counter to the idea of normal, organic play.

Instead, we can play the game as normal, but quite easily observe in the rules that Force powers are currently quite powerful (lack of any ability to resist them, the ease at which they can be performed, the way the damage scales up, the total xp cost compared to what others would have to spend for anything remotely similar).

Besides, Force Powers really are not meant to be a part of "this" system; they're mainly only in there for either examples on foes, or to sate the players that beg to be Force users..

KommissarK said:

I don't disagree with you one bit. But, one aspect of Beta testing is to see where the game breaks down. It's then for the design team at FFG to decide whether or not it's something they wish to change. They'll make the same sorts of assessments that we do when they see feedback about hyperbolic situations as to their merits or sillyness.

In my experience (oh geeze here I go), most "game breaking" problems that exist in every game system sporadically (if ever) come up in actual play. It doesn't stop the viral forum spread of people playing the system, rather than playing the game. Heck, the only reason old school gaming seems so shiney and fun to people is that we didn't have a dozen major forum sites that tore apart THAC0 and how much Fighters sucked back then.

Gaming the system is going to continue into the full release of EotE. For a global commercial release, stuff like unopposed force mashing is going to become a popular talking point. It won't matter if 80% of EotE games would never be affected. Now whether or not FFG wants to tinker with the system to change it or leave it as is? Only Jay and his team of chaos sorcerer designers can really weigh in there, based on the experience they want to create for the typical group.

So, I think setting up slippery slope Fox-News style bonkers scenarios that will never come into play is perfectly fine as a stress test. That's part of the design process. See where it breaks…figure out if the implementation you are going for is going to tread on that territory…adjust accordingly.

In my regular career we use different concrete for different tasks. We could use a 4,000psi reinforced concrete for sidewalks, but that's a bit overkill. But for a bridge footing? Yeah, I probably wouldn't use 3,000psi pedestrian sidewalk concrete without reinforcement.

The FFG design team has an idea of how certain mechanics will stand up to the type of situations they anticipate for Edge of the Empire. Finding out where it breaks will let them know if they've done their job for the intended use, or if their sidewalk falls apart when a fat kid rides their bike on it.

To be honest, the point is to test the system "as you would play it". So if you have a player who 'always' plays the force user, let them. If nobody wants to play a force user, then don't push it on them, there are plenty of other parts of the game (ie almost all of it) that can just as easily be tested by your game.

If your concerned about an issue with the Force, and you have a Force player in your group, consider trying one of the proposed house rules. Experience gained on these user-recommended ideas is also valuable for the test, as it gives and indication of if these methods are ones they should consider or not.

So ultimately. Play the game your group would play, then tell FFG all about it!

My point about the Force Powers other than the lack of a "to hit" roll or defense is that the scenario in which that is abused is common. Very common. It could derail very scene in the sample adventure in the back of the book. So it is not like we are choosing to test or not test something that will never happen or is very likely to happen. If character starts with Force powers they are going to use them (beta testing or not) and if force powers are more deadly, accurate, and reliable then a blaster or any other weapon, then the Force will be used in every combat. [Note: I am still referencing a Exile character build that maxes out the Move tree]

The GM could attempt to balance this all out, not with game mechanics/house rules, but by amping up the difficulty of the session. Imagine that every time the Exile character uses the Force and leaves witnesses the following scenes become near impossible: Empire in full pursuit with large numbers, Nemesis level Bounter Hunters and Assassins ambushing the party, and full on societal rejection with HoloNet broadcast condemning PCs (no docking permission, everything gots to be purchased on the black market at elevated costs, no place to sleep, drink, or relax). How many other PCs (besides the Exile) die before the Exile starts to self-regulate his powers.

Of course, in doing this the campaign becomes solely about the Exile character and their survival and not about the party, story, or anything else. It definitely wouldn't fun for the other characters, unless they are really tolerance of the Exile's BS.

Also, the original example I gave only used minions and a small number of them and in a straight head on fight. Being that you can only move X objects once per turn by activated the power as your action, if the enemy had superior numbers and firepower they should be able to flank and gun down an Exile just as easily as anyone else. Example, if the Exile had a magnitude upgrade that allows 2 objects to be move with a single action, the Exile can automatically hurl and kill 2 enemies per turn. If he fighting 12 stormtroopers, it will still take 6 turns to kill them all (violating Jedi code of course, plus he probably spending destiny points to convert the Force die results, too). That gives the at least 10 stormtroopers with blaster rifles 5 turns to maneuver and shoot the Exile. Would that scenario favor the Exile or Stormtroopers?

Maybe the trick isn't changing the rules but how you play the game in the setting.

Hi Schi0384,

Given the topic, I figured it would be best to move this into the same subforum as the rest of the discussion about Force powers. Hope you don't mind. :-)

Sam

Nope, go ahead