Peacekeeper_b said:

Agreement in general with what you said (sorry for the late reply, but somehow I just noticed this post despite having read past it several times). The fact that you can get up to a +60 modifier means your character with the base value of 30 has a fairly sizable chance of succeeding at everyday tasks, and that you might want to just not bother rolling.

As for firefights, I've studied some of the FBI data on the matter. I won't say why, but let's just point out that I'm not answering the question of whether or not I've been in the crossfire of two rival gangs, although I will say that you never, ever go to the Fifth Ward in Houston if you can avoid it. Most firefights occur at ranges of 21 or fewer feet, and half of those at ranges of 8 feet or less. Over half of all gunfights occur in inclement conditions (what's referred to as "average battle conditions") - panic, panting for breath, snapfire while yourself receiving fire, etc. The remainder are shots at an unsuspecting target from ambush, which may or may not lead to return fire, or are exchanges of fire between experienced combatants. Hits are astonishingly rare - to say that the average person hits 15% of the time in these conditions would actually be an overstatement, but for game purposes works out okay.

Also, most of the time when a hit does occur, the person is usually dining on pavement immediately, from trauma, shock, pain, and bloodloss. Any part of a person hit by a .45 will almost certainly be reduced to paste.

Looking at the military data, in a real combat situation the average soldier is going to hit with considerably less than 30% of their shots, but part of the reason for this is that many times bullets are let loose for reasons other than killing the enemy (area denial tactics, shooting at possible targets, etc.). Of those shots that are fired at actual known targets, a trained soldier is looking at about one in five shots hitting if they're receiving fire (and thus hiding behind cover), in poor lighting conditions, fatigued, etc. Only in optimal occurrances (which includes not trying to preserve his/her own life) will a soldier achieve better than 30% accuracy. Indeed, the "three round burst" is intended to increase the chances of hitting with a single shot, not to put more than one bullet in a target.

All told, I rather like the combat system in the game. It's trecherous and it rewards the deceitful. For people looking for grimdark, it really is ace.

Bazleebub said:

My dander was raised with his one-legged retard crap, and decended from there into spite and vile from his generalization of the players all wanting to be like his playstyle and be cool and kill things.

There are plenty of people who come here, who don't like Dark Heresy, and yet post contructive and worthwhile posts that can be discussed.

Then this is the tripe he put out that wasn't even just insulting, but pure idiocy.

I find it amusing that my post is nasty, but you have no problem with him discussing one-legged retards as anyone who is incompetant. Makes me wonder.

Pneumonica said:

I remain unconvinced that this is ideal for a setting where camoflage and helmets are optional and chainsaw swords standard issue equipment.

You need to realise you are working in comicbook land, with all that that entails.

The question then is how to make it so characters can live up to their fluff text:-

+++++You can take on the role of an Arch-militant, a veteran of hundreds of battles. You might be a bounty hunter, a soldier, or a bodyguard—no matter how you were trained, you are a puissant and relentless predator who knows few equals with your chosen tools of war. You hone the art of destruction to a keen edge, and have survived long enough to earn your title amongst the cold and uncaring void between stars.

Perhaps you are seeking a challenge to your warrior skills, or tracking criminals fleeing Imperial justice. Perhaps you find fulfilment in destroying the ancient enemies of Man: aliens, daemons…and worse. Whatever your cause, an Arch-militant provides the muscle and the battle-honed instincts necessary for survival beyond the Imperium’s borders, for the void eagerly devours the naive and the incautious.+++++

I don't think players are going to be too happy when their veteran of hundreds of battles gets punked in the first battle of the campaign by some ****** with an autogun. Do you?

Dezmond said:

No but if you're playing an Arch-militant against some ******, then that is where the minion rules come into play. Its one of the reasons no one is saying that the minion rules are bad... if for some reason you HAVE to fight a ****** with an autogun as an Arch-militant then yes, minion rules should and do come into play.

That said, I do expect a challenge though is my Arch-militant comes up against an Orc with a choppa and not a simple "Yawn I draw my sword, don't even bother rolling the dice I auto-go first with my super reflexes, and auto-hit because of my high skill, and will auto-crit due to my high strength."

Same with a Space Marine. I figure Minion rules come in for facing that same Orc, but expect to have to fight it out, complete with misses against a Chaos Space Marine.

Even having Minion rules is already comic book land, when 20 year Marine Vets wearing body armor are being shot and killed by some 16 year old punk with an AK-47 in Fallujah. These guys are vets of both Gulf Wars, then being shot by some kid who wasn't even old enough to vote in the states, but is going around shooting Marines and getting lucky.

So even basically saying that your Arch-Militant is basically being given a free pass from said ****** with an autogun, when said ****** if this was real life could and should still be a threat is definatly entering comic book land and fantasy, which isn't a bad thing with game design, which is why most people aren't complaining about the minion rules.

Dezmond said:

I remain unconvinced that you understand the setting. You need to realize that you're not working in comicbook land, and you never were. You're dealing with a game in which the average Space Marine hits half the time against foes who stand within 40 feet of range with them. And these are the "superpower" characters that you keep harping on - the "ultimate fighters of the futuristic battlefield" hit just half the time rather than the average soldier's third. Where did comicbook land happen again? Was it with the "lack of" camouflage that's so effective that scout units can creep up to within 50 feet of enemy positions without drawing fire? Or was it with the fact that the ultimate "stabby" army will lose approximately half its numbers before closing into melee combat with Space Marines, and that's if they're winning ?

The game, despite being science fictiony and having some seriously over-the-top elements, isn't the THIS IS SPARTA game that you make it out to be. The Space Marines never were, the Eldar and the Orks never were, none of them ever were. Ever. At all.

Dezmond said:

I do. If they're dumb enough not to seek cover, they would have never gotten to where they are, nor should they have. Players who play like that might be part and parlance of your gaming table, but I have yet to play at a gaming table that matches your expectations, and I've been RP gaming for nearly as long as the hobby's been around.

Pneumonica said:

I may have to disagree with you there to a point. Against normal humans Space Marines are very potent, literally killing dozens if not hundreds before going down. Many of the books have shown that even when a normal human burns down a Chaos Marine (arguably the Polar opposite of a Space marine) its because they had help... LOTS of help... and most of those who were helping didn't make it out.

Which is why to me minion rules and hit point scaling are so important. One 100 hit point space marine vs 100 1 hit point damage minions, that space marine is going to take a lot of those minions out, but even if those minions do 50 hit points the first round ( assuming misses), 25 hit points the second round (with misses and casulaties), 15 hit points the third round (the space marine is having to move now because the minions are more spread out destroying his hit to kill ratio) and 5, 3 and 2 hit points the final round, while there aren't many if any minions left, the Space Marine is dead. Sure that Space Marine took out an entire reinforced company of minions, but he still died, which is where the hit points and toughness come in and minion rules.

This was reiniforced in the Dark Heresy published story with the Space Marine NPC, who was severly injured by the end, but yet was still a killing machine. Space Marines are supposed to be deadly, and I agree with Dezmond on this aspect, but a Space Marine still needs to be careful. That Space marine could have done a lot more damage, and still lived with a bit of cover and concealment... like trenches.

And while admittedly I haven't played it yet, from what I'm told Dawn of War II uses cover and concealment as well, and since GW approved Dawn of War II I'm going to assume that while Space Marines are deadly, and theoretically can take a company of normal humans by just charging in, that Space marine would be better off not sacrificing himself, and using cover and concealment and tactics to win the day.

+++++The Space Marines never were+++++

Give it time old son. They already are in their novels, and do we think they will get less badass fluff than a lowly Arch-Militant?

--

Yeah, minion rules make loads of difference. And I agree it is better to give people lots of hit points than more armour - that way the smaller threats remain a problem that must be kept in mind (cause those bee stings add up), but one bad roll won't take out a character with no chance to recover the situation.

Another forum, the same old threads?

Sorry, that's not very productive. Perhaps we need a "cinematic" Dark Heresy (erm, more cinematic than it already is) that would suit Dezmond? I wonder if someone is willing to produce?

Kage

Pneumonica said:

In a tabletop game of Warhammer 40k, which is the source material for all of this, I once had an Eldar Farseer single handedly destroy a Land Raider tank with a SWORD! Jump... Slice... BOOM!!! That's not just comicbook. It's pure anime.

And that is one of the actions that is often supported by the game that makes me go, "naaaah..."

Kage

Sure, and in cyberpunk literature there's the "bladeless knife" that can cut through plate steel with a flick of a wrist, or shear an armored vehicle in half by strining it across a road. That wasn't considered "comic book", that was considered a "science fiction trope". The idea that, 38,000 years into the future, there'll be blades that can cut through tanks in very similar ways isn't that out of the ordinary. Plus, given armor and weaponry, I don't doubt the ability of a Space Marine against an "ordinary human". Fact of the matter is, in game play, they are vulnerable. Not so vulnerable as, say, Imperial Guard, but they die in good numbers, even against Imperial Guard forces. I wasn't saying it wouldn't take the IG outnumbering the SMs to get a victory, but I am saying that the SMs aren't the god-killing machines they're being made out to be.

At any rate, I realize I've slid into the graviational pull of Dezmond's valuelessness, and I'll stop now. Mea culpa .

Bazleebub said:

It's not nasty given the person it's directed at. Dezmond doesn't discuss things, he comes in and says that no one understands that the game should only about 40 foot daiklaves weilded by 10 foot marines (yes, this is a direct statement by him in a different thread). It is DEZMOND that says HE knows what people want and it ISN'T DH or RT.

I'm sorry, but Dezmond is the least productive and most useless poster I've ever encountered because he doesn't discuss things, only condescends to people about how they'll eventually understand it's all about marines killing things with their pinkies rather than anything else. There is no point actually making an argument with him, of spending half an hour on a response to a statement, because he will ignore it and state 'it's all about the marines' and then post some random hyperbolic picture to prove it. The fact that these forums offer absolutely NOTHING for him and yet he is still here proves beyonf a doubt he does this for fun. Some ego stroking to see people get angry at what he says.

So, Dezmond deserves everything he gets because he is nothing but a juvenile troll with no regard for discussion, only pushing people to anger through condescension, hyperbole and ridicule. He doesn't need a Cinematic Dark Heresy forum, he needs a PLAYPEN. When he grows up enough to discuss rather than condescend and TELL, then perhaps he can join in. Until then his drivel does nothing but cause problems. There was a reason he was banned fom Black Industries Forums. He probably would be here too, if they were moderated as well as BI's were (nothing against the mods, BI had a much smaller set of forums compared to these).

Hellebore

I would like to point out that it is exceedingly tempting to lay into him (I've been doing it myself of late, and for that I apologize), but this is way too much bandwidth to devote to him (again, I'm implicating myself in this). While it would be absurdly useful to have an ignore function, and it would also be absurdly useful for FFG to remove somebody from the forum who posts twenty times per day about how much one of FFG's top-line games is horrible and not emblematic of its setting, we need to return to manually ignoring him.

Let me point out that yes my post was nasty and it was juvenile. Let me also point out that Dezmond has the right to play whatever style of game he wants to play. Its his gaming style let him.

What I also want to point out though is that his continue crusade to make everyone play his style of gameplay got on my nerves, when combined with his uncalled for statement about one-legged retards. It doesn't make what I did right however. That said, I'm going to side that sometimes Dezmond, when he puts his mind to it, can come up with some awesomely thought provoking statements, and some really good points, like his point in another thread of the British Captain fighting the Spainish Fleet.

I choose not to ignore him because while I disagree with many of his points, and I definatly disagree with the way he goes about making them, many of his points at the least do cause certain problems with the Dark Heresy system to come to light. Its just that on occasion, okay more then occasionally, he can push the wrong buttons for everyone and cause flair ups.

Pneumonica said:

Well said. After Dezmond's one comment about 'one legged retards' I have decided to just ignore the guy. Good advice, Pneumonica.

Hes currently banned from Dark Reign too...

I don't like to comment about other posters specifically as its jolly bad form really, but i've come out of the woodwork here to offer some advice; or rather to explain how i personally cope after having been drawn into his troll-traps many moons ago.

Bad luck guys, you've been drawn in. Just look at this thread... totally derailed and destroyed so that all you're doing now is moaning about Dezmond/Erik.

Its what he does.

Every thread, every forum i've ever seen him on.

I ignore him.

Any and everything he posts.

Its not that hard actually since whatever the thread topic he basically posts the same thing so once you've read it you pretty much know what he'll say next.

So my advice put simply (or rather, advice on how i personally cope with him)? Never respond to his facile posts. If possible try not to read them, as he's a master at baiting. If you do actually read one by accident, relax, count to 10 and don't respond.

Just my thoughts and experience on the issue.

Right, where's that cider jug...

It isn't just me.

+++My problem is that the WarHammer RPGs don't match the badassery of the fluff from the wargame. Don't get me wrong, I love the low-rent soulcrushing dystopia aspect. But sometimes I think it'd be fun to play a completely over-the-top insanely metal game, with Space Marines and psykers that blow up tanks and Orks with crazy vehicles and all that other wackiness.+++

++Eventually there will be Deathwatch, we must have patience.++

+...why?

This has always been my issue. I mean, sure, all us "real roleplayers" have talked about the dark and gritty world of 40K. Yet, the big seller of this game--that is to say, 9 out of 12 armies you can play, including the big bad obvious seller of them all, the Space Marines--I have to wait what, three years before I can play?

I mean, really, if D&D can do farm boy to demigod, and Exalted can go demigod to terrible deity, and if WW can pull off mortals to elders to anything else...what was the business model hoping that I buy three books that each cost quite a hefty sum (thanks to their beauty and splendor, true)? Especially when Book 1 is "nothing at all like what you probably expect in 40K", and book 2 is "barely tied to what you probably know in 40K!"+

Hesse said:

I for one will be starting PCs afresh in RT rather than 'advancing DH PCs'. I think Ascension will be taking the DH characters forwards towards their eventual uber-powered Inquisitorhood, so i'd rather make the clean break and kick off new PCs within RT.

How about you?

I'll be going for the seperate 'verses too, possibly using freshly made (and slightly advanced) DH characters for the odd "lower decks" mission in Rogue Trader.

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LowerDeckEpisode

Otherwise, Inquisition stays Inquisition and Rogue Trader stays Rogue Trader - and its a good thing those two seldom meet...

Although I think there may be a place for DH Careers in RT and vice versa , I think the focus of the games themselves are totally different, so definitely an RT game needs to be seperate from a DH game. Inquisitors don't really have a place in "neutral space", or Fra'al space, or Squat space, etc. And I can't resist at least alluding to Inquisitors having Squats to do.

I love you Luddite. Has been my philosophy as well on... previous derailment topic.

Anyway, someone earlier in this thread said FFG would continue to support Dark Heresy "for a while" after Rogue Trader came out.

My impression was that all three games (once we reach Deathwatch) would continue to live as active games in the same universe. Is that not the case? Has something to the contrary been said to indicate the lower level games will eventually be ended in favor of the higher level ones?

The license is probably limited, so they're likely only planning a limited number of supplements since they can only guarantee a certain amount of time they'll have it. This doesn't mean that it won't be continued, merely that nobody knows if it will.

aethel said:

No they haven't said that they would be ended in favor of the higher level ones, nor have they said though that they will all continue indefinatly. Dark Heresy will continue on at least until Deathwatch comes out. since they'll probably do an Ascention II book to bring Dark Heresy characters to the level of Inquisitors.

But you'll probably see a major scaling back in the number of books FFG puts out to support Dark Heresy after Rogue Trader comes out. Its all about the writing talent and the funds, and the fact that since all the games will be compatable with other games, why bring out a Dark Heresy Xenos book and a Rogue Trader Xenos book.

The problem is that right now they're listing Rogue Trader and Dark Heresy as two seperate game lines, which are compatable. So while you'll see a Xenos book for Rogue Trader under the Rogue Trader brand label, it'll be obviously useful for any Dark Heresy Character, especially those who work for Ordo Xenos. But you'll have to track two seperate game lines, and understand which ones are compatable and which ones are more specific for a game line.

Personally if I was FFG, which I'm not, I'd combine Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, and Death Watch all under some kind of generic title, like Warhammer 40k Roleplaying, and then release titles in support of Warhammer 40k Roleplaying in general. Keep the three core books as core books, relase adventures to support the core books, but many books can be released in general for all three storylines at the exact same time. One Xenos book to rule them all. Obviously I'd move many of the Xenos heresies from Dark heresy and the Xenos Creatures from Creatures Anathema (a Dark Heresy book) out into my Rogue Trader games. Why reprint all the critters from the Dark Heresy main rule book again in the Rogue Trader rule book (for example Daemonspawn). And why should I have to track two seperate webpages for all the supporting material for all three games, and hopefully they don't reprint too many things between game lines so that when I buy Creatures Anathema II for my Dark Heresy game, I don't see Xenos from the Rogue Trader Xenos Handbook. Streamline the process would save money, time, and effort, and make it more easy for us dumb folk to figure out crossovers.

To make it easier each gameline could have a "symbol" that is placed on the back of the book to let you know what game it supports. So a Rogue Trader game maybe would only have a symbol of a ship's wheel on the corner, while Creatures Anathema 2 and Xenos Tech would get a Aquilla standing for the entire WH40kRPG line, while the Ascention book would have a symbol of the =][= symbol on it, and so on and so on.

So right now the question keeps popping up like this, will Dark Heresy continue to be supported, and the answer is a resounding yes, but you may need to drag things from Rogue Trader and Death Watch in order to support it if they continue to market this as three seperate (but compatable) game lines.

I think it bears mentioning that the nature of the trinary game line isn't up to FFG - it's a GW desicion. While I'm not disagreeing with what you say, let's not blame FFG for GW's decision, since GW owns the IP.

EDIT: Although I will say this - one core book for all three games would be a clunker. I'm not sure how well that would work out overall. And a single book for game system without things like complete (or even semi-complete) character creation would get its own set of complaints.

Pneumonica said:

Completely agree with you. I know it may not be FFG's fault, but its still a hell of a clunky way to find information when half my Xenos information for my Ordo Xenos Inquisitor is in the Rogue Trader line, instead of a general WH40KRPG line which they all share.

And totally agree with the edit. Rogue Trader, Deathwatch and Dark Heresy should be completely different games with different core rulebooks, but the shared information should be shared in a simply streamlined way amongst all three and not spread out across three seperate marketting lines. Core books and adventures should be game specific, but the background info like orcs and such should be sold generically.