Hi,

After reading the teaser we found out that Rogue Trader is fully competible.

* Are there going to be new classes?
* Are there going to be new Races/Abhumans?
* Perhaps even some freeform rules

* Which classes from DH are going to be repeated?
* Which current available classes would be essential for a Rogue Trader crew?

Have you seen the description page ?

I have now...

Some sound like entirely new classes, some sound like extremely advanced classes.

Are they entirely new or are they new branches on excisting trees, extended branches or all three?

Hmm... Interesting, but this is me hoping there are more than just those five classes or that those classes are a lot more flexible than the ones for Dark Heresy.

Well since Rogue Trader is a stand alone game, each class will be seperate from Dark Heresy and no you won't need Dark Heresy to play Rogue Trader.

That said, don't be surprised if you see some strong resemblences to current Alcolyte classes.

Obviously Archmilitant is a Guardsman/Assassin style class. Astropath and Navigator are Psyker style classes. Missionary is obviously a Cleric style class. Rogue Traders are more of a Scum / Adept Class.

But yes, they'll be class trees, and it'll be very easy to see what class is supposed to be what but with significant crossover... look at how a top maxed out level Cleric looks, and sometimes it can be hard to see that its not a Guardsman.

Well... this definitely seems to be sweet. I would especialy like to incorporate some rules/careers into the Dark Heresy (big =I= is in my personal opinion more funny than rouge traders, but well, that´s me), Astropath, Navigator (good inspiration for their use is Matt Farrer´s novel Legacy), Arch-Militant (bounty hunters, finaly, new Harlon Nalys and Zeph Mathuins are coming yupeeee:D ) are going to be useful in my adventures...

Just one question- where are the origins? That trouble me a little, for example Navigator, but also Rouge Trader itself could work quite as well as origins, not as careers. Will there be some new (frontier worlds) /recycled (noble, imperial worlds...)/ expanded (void born) origins?

This preview is very promising, I keep my fingers crossed for the final product:)

Though as of yet nothing about xenos/abhumans...

I was wondering when they'd let you play a navigator or astropath. I'll wager any Inquisitorial retinue would kill (literally) for an astropath retainer.

Although I do agree - it seems that the nagivator is more of a "homeworld" (equivalence) choice rather than a career choice.

FFG Ross Watson said:

Ppppffhhhhrrrt!!! *sprays tea everywhere*

Why on Io wasn't this game released before DH ?!?!

Proof of the pudding will be in the eating of course, but this looks like the 40k RPG we should have got instead of Dark Heresy.

RT's not even out yet and i'm pretty much dropping my planned second DH campaign in favour of this.

ICONS!! We actually get to play 40k ICONS rather than the redshirt scum DH dished up.

I'm somewhat excited.

I demand the release of Rogue Trader NOW! Dagnabbit!

And if it ain't perfect when i get it, i'll come round there and eat your moose...

Luddite said:

Thing is, in spite of your semi-regular claims to the contrary, that's actually more a matter of how a game is run, rather than anything else. None of my group feel like they're "redshirt scum". They might not be Inquisitors and Space Marines, but they're not exactly gutter trash either (except the one who is, but then he revels in being gutter trash... gutter trash with an extremely large supply of weapons - it's arguable that Necromunda-style hive gangers are just as 'iconic' as Inquisitors and the like).

Just because it's not your particular cup of recaf doesn't mean it isn't a worthwhile game and a valid entity in its own right. Rogue Trader may certainly be a better fit for what you want out of a 40kRP, but I'm personally quite happy with Dark Heresy, and may well only use Rogue Trader as a sourcebook for my DH games.

The problem is that, because Dark Heresy came out first, everyone wanted it to be and provide everything they could have ever wanted from a 40kRP... even though that wasn't what was promised. Everyone had all these expectations that weren't necessarily going to be fulfilled by Dark Heresy, but which might well be fulfilled by Rogue Trader or Deathwatch... and people being people, everyone was impatient and swift to judge.

What was promised was three games, presumably because BI knew (and FFG understand) that no single game and no single book can encompass everything that defines the 40k setting... three games with accompanying supplements stand a much better chance of accomplishing that.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I'd have been happy with Kal Jericho.

Well, okay, not happy, but less put out.

Oh all right, I still want the Marines.

--

So what kind of kewl Powerz does an Arch Militant get - Can I play an Invincilble Sword Princess? A near dreadnought augmetic titan? A Juicer?

I really don't get the "DH acolytes suck!" attitude I keep seeing. I don't know what these people are expecting, but personally I can't think of anything more boring and annoying than playing SPESS MEHREENS running around killing everything in reach. I'd much rather play a fully developed human being with the flaws and weaknesses that entails. Playing servants of the Inquisition is about the best thing I could have hoped for, and while I'm hopeful regarding the Rogue Trader stuff, my concern is that the game will involve people with so much personal power and influence that it'll just be another boring power trip game. I was particularly worried when I saw Navigators and the Rogue Traders themselves being listed as base careers. I'm hoping the Rogue Traders are going to be expanded to represent those folks that are not in command of city-size ships, so you can have a group of PCs starting small and working their way up to the fame and fortune of the bug guys. I'm particularly hoping the Navigators get blunted a bit to something reasonable, with specialized skills to act as a navigator and otherwise are just specialized psykers.

Aureus said:

I agree to a point. Its based on what powerlevel a certain group likes. The same arguement came out in DnD 3.5 when they allowed you to make Epic Characters, and people were blasting those players and vice versa.

People like certain power levels. Some like Dark Heresy/Call of Cthuhlu/Adventure/DnD 1st level characters and watch them grow into heroes. Others like to advance their DnD characters to 5th to 10th level to remove the "common man" syndrome but still want to play a person who is just becoming a true hero. Others like over the top Exalted/Scion/Deathwatch characters where you're elite powergaming gonzo style of play.

I've heard all kinds of arguements go back and forth and who is right an wrong, including psychological profiles. Bottom line is that nobodies style of gaming is wrong. If that's the style of game you like, you like it. Its obvious that Dark Heresy has done rather well, meaning that all these complaints of Alcolytes suck is coming from a very small vocal minority. If everyone thought Alcolytes sucked, then Dark Heresy would have died an early death.

Let the vocal minority complain. They want a certain style of game that Dark Heresy doesn't provide them. Rogue Trader may, but I seriously think they're going to be disappointed. The mechanics are the same, and the enemies are tougher, so the "issues" they have with Dark Heresy will exist in the Rogue Trader game as well, but that's my opinion.

I just wish they'd pick someplace else. I mean, i don't like Warhammer Fantasy, but I'm not there complaining about their game. My personal preferences are mine.

As to the classes, Ascension will hopefully expand the DH careers and allow them to extend as far as the RT careers. This is a stopgap, however - the game is supposed to stand alone. The game probably needs some form of Adept equivalent, which it is lacking (information seems like it's nearly as important in RT as it is in DH). Tech Priests of some kind would probably come in handy as well, and any ship 1km or larger is going to have its fair share of Scum (I believe it said as much in DH).

The 5 Careers on the description page are not the only ones in the book...

...let the speculation begin!

Seriously, though, we will be talking more and more about the game in the upcoming weeks with plenty of designer diaries and other cool info and revelations. So stay tuned!

+++++I just wish they'd pick someplace else.+++++

Well, you gotta remember that the delta between 40k and Dark Heresy came about because WFRP basically got hijacked by GW protestors who despises all GW stand for.

So because of all their whining we ended up with a scifi version of WFRP instead of a 40k roleplaying game.

Moral of the story - whinge early and whinge often, or play a redshirt.

I'm done with playing redshirts.

(Consider the difference between WFRP and Warhammer Online. Warhammer Online is what a Warhammer RPG looks like without the baggage of WFRP holding it back)

--

Call of Cthulhu is in some ways better than DH - the average skill level in CoC in something your character is good at has to be up in the 75% region.

Compare to DHs 30-40 odd %.

And in call of Cthulhu it is still really hard to not do slapstick, with characters constantly failing rolls to tie their shoelaces or cross a street on a windy day.

Its just bad design - better to use system that doesn't track 'succeed or fail', but rather 'how much effort can you generate.

Pneumonica said:

Oh don't worry about the naysayers. A naysayer, is a naysayer, is a naysayer. The mere fact that they whine and moan about what they view as inadequacies only proves the fact that they themselves play the game. As such are either unaware or don't care about their hy-poc-ri-sy (similar to blasphemy, less intelligent.) They're going to be the same people that'll whine their ways across this board, and the Death Watch. You learn to tune them out and enjoy what you have after a while. ^^

As for classes, though most people seem to think the contrary, I certainly hope that RT doesn't expand too much on the career paths in DH, if at all. I'm hoping for a completely different game here that just touches a different aspect of the 40k universe (hopefully one with more opportunities for Xenos characters.) Not that the endgame of DH shouldn't be addressed, but I'd like a stand alone, not an expansion for something like RT.

Oh, I'm not saying that. The expansions of the DH careers are going to be in Ascension. What I'm talking about is the RT equivalents of certain, universal trades, like the sage and the technician (possibly the same Career?). I also definitely expect to see a pilot career, which has no analog in DH. I realize that interstellar distances are navigated by the Navigators (appropriately enough), there still need to be helmsmen, and smaller vessels are steered entirely by their pilots.

FFG Ross Watson said:

Cool! This I like to hear!

We have faith in you Ross!

N0-1_H3r3 said:

You do understand that this is becoming the somewhat traditional counter-argument that does little to address the actual concern that might be somewhat inarticulately expressed by referring to "redshirt scum?" The use of Inquisitors and Space Marines then suggests that the person making such claims only wants to play "power characters," which while not necessarily the desire, and certainly not helped by some of Dezmond's arguments (sorry, Dezmond), certainly contributes to the problem rather than solving it.

Personally I didn't like Dark Heresy because of my own bias—I did want a "toolbox" game and not one that was so incredibly focussed on a specific, very small (but strangely large) part of the universe. (That and I cynically felt that it was first because they already had Inquisitor . Seems that I was both wrong and incredibly right at the same time.) It was unlikely that I was going to like a WFRP -derivative (not a fan of the system), it was made worse by a pseudo level-based system, not quite in keeping with how I viewed the "servants of the Inquisition," a disappointing approach to psykers (read: transplant of WFRP -magic), and for someone that knew a little bit about the 40k universe, disappointing approaches to the Imperium that were not aided by the requirement that you buy into the idea that the Imperium is Catholic Europe in space.

On the other hand, it works for some, and that's great. But must it always come to the point that those individuals who are interested in 40k RPG and do not like Dark Heresy are only interested in playing Space Marines?

If I were to fix Dark Heresy so that it worked for me for an Inquisitorial Acolyte focus? Remove the class system (it reinforces the medieval feel, but just doesn't work for Acolytes IMO), start with characters at Level 4, replace the psyker system wholesale, remove the idea of a percentile system into just a d100 system, etc. None of that is about playing Space Marines.

Of course, that's my own bias. I come from my favoured system of GURPS , which is one that turns many people off for being too crunchy, too bland, or any number of other arguments. Hey! That's fair enough. I've always liked the bland system to which I can bring the flavour with my narrative style. Further, it's a "toolbox" for playing 40k RPG rather than playing a limited section of it. Well, at least if you're willing to spend the time converting it.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I, on the other hand, am hoping that Rogue Trader will offer some explanations to the 40k universe.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Or they realised that the game wasn't their cup of tea but, as lovers of the premise of 40k RPG, look for a sense of "community" with other lovers of 40k RPG? And perhaps community without partisanship?

Of course, often they select the wrong tools for the trade...

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I always felt that a single core system and then supplements would be a better way to go. The modular system that I fear will be presented makes that more difficult, such that you're playing three games and not 40k RPG.

Different strokes and all that.

Sorry, though, just had to get that off my chest. It's so hard to find places that discuss 40k RPG rather than just a single system. That's one of the reasons that with the opening of this forum I stopped pootling around the Dark Heresy forum.

Kage

I still prefer the Inquisition over Rogue Traders, but hey, Im still getting this one.

The thing you have to remember about Inquisitor's as PCs is it is rare that Inquisitors work in large numbers (and by large, I mean more then 1 at a time). But you do have his retinue, as seen in Eisenhorn, Revenor, Scourge the Heretic, Amberly Vails appearances in the Cain novels and so forth. Even in the comic Inquisitor Ascendent you have Defay having his own assistant Gravier. So when it came to making Inquisition style game they decided against having one of the players being the Inquisitor and instead they all play his retinue more or less sent on missions for him, a la Charlie's Angels.

So I dont understand why players get to be Rogue Traders. I see many games getting ruined by more then one "captain" at a time. So I think you may be a "rogue trader" in name, and maybe even in deed, but more akin to his heirs and not the actual power behind the ships. You may have a ship, a crew and get to act as captain and what not, but you are not going to get a huge battle fleet of death ships.

Not at start at least.

But overall, it is too early for any of us to speculate.

And Dezmund, yes you want Space Marines. I want real Commissars. Deal with what you dont have.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Except there are 200+ Inquisitors in Calixis (a very quiet sector in the context of the Imperium and it has practically 1 Inquisitor per world! ), and they have a 'chapter house' so presumably work together out of that? Also...acgkh...old arguement...water under the bridge...

In Megacity One, the Judges patrol/operate individually. In the Judge Dredd RPG, they patrolled/operated as PCs in groups and all was well...precedent set?

Peacekeeper_b said:

I don't see it being ruined at all. If every PC has a 'role' to play in the group, where's the problem. Most groups hava a 'lead PC' anyway. formalising it just adds a layer of interest.

And 'leaders' are situational anyway...

When the plasma drives fail, everyone's looking at the Tech Priest...

When the ship translates into the Warp, the Navigator takes over...

Pirates board? The RT's looking at the security chief...

All excellent roleplaying opportunities, which i personally find very interesting.

As for pointless speculation, i suspect 'start-up' Rogue Trader groups will be more Firefly than Star Trek ...

I suspect the RT will start with one ship rather than a fleet, to allow for some growth.

There COULD be xenos careers as additional ones, if anyone is going to have an eldar on their crew it's a RT.

From a design perspective I agree with Kage. One very bare non specific core book with generalities and then 'setting' books would have been a better option for game layout and playability. However, Dezmond's own stance is probably the reason it didn't happen like that. GW likes selling names and imagery and because RPGs aren't played by 12 year old boys that would would rather watch 300 than stare at boobies (excepting Dezmond of course), they safely and rightly assumed that the RPG demographic would prefer something a little more cerebral than 300. As Dezmond is not your average RPG demographic, the Inquisition and Rogue Traders make perfect sense as an RPG setting from a demographic vs profit perspective. RPGs are generally too cooperative and cerebral for the average wargame demographic GW pedals to these days.

Because it was the first official 40k RPG ever, they really wanted a strong RPG image to sell to RPG players and not 12 year old god of war fanatics that couldn't roll dice to save their lives (hence why I think Dezmond should stay with his computer games and Gerard Butler mancrush as he'll get far more enjoyment than roleplaying - unless of course he roleplays AS Gerard Butler whilst playing God of War). Thus the Inquisition. I can guarantee more of the roleplaying community bought inquisition based novels from BL than they bought Uriel Ventris or Ragnar Blackmane, precisely for those reasons.

I'm really looking forward to this, I want to see the kind of expansion of 40k you can only get in an RPG. Although that is probably asking more than you'll actually get, it should still have some interesting stuff.

Hellebore

FFG Ross Watson said:

So we have Rogue Trader, Navigator, Arch-Militant, Astropath and Missionary.

I speculate we would also have Tech Priest... or perhaps Explorator Magos.

Astropaths and Navigators being very specific and limited in their range of psychic abilities, I'd like to see an Sanctioned Psyker type character... someone with a boarder range of pysker powers.

I would desperately like to see a Pilot class. The one huge gap in DH for me is the lack of ability to create a Betancore-type character and I'm hoping Rogue Trader will redress the lack. Besides, what Rogue Trader fleet would be complete without a squadron of Lighting aerospace fighters?

I would also expect to see some kind of 'adept' style career, perhaps someone skilled in negotiating with xenos, or in interpreting lost lore, a little like the unfortunate killed at the opening of the Ravenor series?