Donovan Morningfire said:

that just hit home… though my right hand/arm wasn't mangled, i had surgery on my right shoulder a month ago and had to learn to do everything with my left… (the worst was when the surgery drugs completely wore off two days later and i realized that until that point in my life 27 years had passed without even considering how difficult going number 2 would be with my right hand/arm… hahaha)

korjik said:

that is a **** good point, i hadn't thought of it like that… i just considered the class splitting

+++++FFG is making a new game system from scratch. Seems like a good idea to get the mechanics down a bit before they start trying to ram the harder stuff in.+++++

Like I say though, the system really need to be designed around Jedi, or when they are introduced they may not work. The WFRP v1/2 variant used in the 40k RPG works fine for the first game they produced, where you are playing relatively low powered relatively normal characters, but it works progressively less well as you move in to the territory of Space Marines and Aspect Warriors and Inquisitors and Primarchs and Temple Assassins and a whole bunch off stuff that feature pretty heavily in the setting. GURPS works best for relatively normal people and terribly for superheroes, and HERO works great for superheroes and less well for regular folks and DnD breaks at high level.

Systems tend to have a sweet spot, a thing they are best at. Need to choose what that is.

Cyril said:

Hence the quotation marks added to the "real" … although the original trilogy is the first and it is the classic, I agree that Star Wars is what you make up, yourself, so to speak. I have enjoyed numerous campaigns set in the new republic era over the years, and since most of the books I have read is set during that era, it is for me what is "star wars" … yet I recognise the fact that Star Wars started with episode iv and that trilogy, Luke and Han and Leia. It is from that star wars bloomed.

I see the reasoning behind doing what they do, I'm happy with it even. I am one of those that like fringe types, as much as I like the rebellion and jedi on steroids.

I like it the way they are doing it, because it lets me run a long campaign with lots of stuff happening and then sometime in the future I can pressure them into working for the rebellion, and when they all eventually die, we can have a fun campaign where they are jedi on the run

The funny thing is, I am not actually trying to build a cheese-wielding Galen Marek of a character, but I play Star Wars for Jedi, even if they have to be weaker, more restrained, or what have you. I don't really want to start with one power, next to no lore knowledge, and a blaster pistol

I played WEG d6 system eons ago, and we did a mission where we had to save the Alliance's B-Wing prototypes from being captured. My character there was a very Kota-like Jedi, had been "high-ranking", but lost himself to depression and booze, after the pre-"Lucas escape" Clone Wars, and the rise of the Empire made it very important for him to be unseen. He actually was ejected from the Order prior to the endgame, and wound up drowning in ale in Outer Rim cantinas, and the galaxy went to pot around his addled head. My problem was, and this system doesn't share it, that even an "advanced education" character, like my Council Member, needed external training, in a setting where that was unlikely (both Kenobi and Yoda are dead, to anyone's knowledge). I had one Force power, and it sucked (that's what the build gave me; while the kid with potential had three?, and they were slightly better, probably through the exuberance of youth, and some last vestiges of optimism), but where I left that uneducated punk in the dust was the lightsaber. While it was effectively a weapon that gave me the Draw Fire talent, it COULD do amazing things, and I had lots of dice in it (that often rolled shallow ). That character wasn't particularly good at much else; he didn't pull his head out of the mug often enough to do much else, and I'm still not sure where he got the money to drink with, but when combat loomed, he did a good job of concentrating fire away from other squishies, while not getting hit, due to the saber, and he could be relied upon, n paper, to drop some seriously big threats, when they deigned to appear. We actually got pretty far, till a larval space slug bit me in half, by surprise (I did the same to it with my lightsaber), and Kenobi's ghost appeared, saving me from death, telling me I had something important to do, yet. We never got back to that game. I'm just not sure how much fun I'll have in a game that doesn't want me to do either of these things. I've played games where the character starts as something, and earns the right to gain a level of Jedi, and acquire the lightsaber, but I'm not sure that's the RP I want to play. I don't need Aleema Keto-level Force powers, or Mace Windu-rated saber skills, nor do I want/usually try to pull all the fun out of my fellow player's hands, but I play Jedi, then Officer style characters (which this book also lacks), and then I look for something else. My old drunk had a blaster, and I used it most of the game, till we found the base, and his past experiences (he killed someone with the Force, to save another, then got the boot) made him not like to call on his Force, so I can do the "hide these two obviouses from the Empire, maybe even your party" pretty easily. I'm just not sure if it's worth all the effort, the way the game is presenting it. Granted, this system is different than any others I've looked at, so far. It isn't d20, obviously, but it isn't every other FFG game I've looked through, either. Some of my skepticism might just be from the dice up, I don't yet understand all of this game. As I page through the book more, maybe more will come to me.

Way back to my initial post, was I correct? Will this game cap out at Power Rating 2? And after 3+ other talents, first? I can live playing a non-Jedi, even a non-F-S; I just need to know ahead that it's a good idea. It's what I like to play, but if the game wants me to not acknowledge it as an option worthy of pouring effort into, when there are several other good character archetypes to explore, it's just good to know I didn't spend a bunch of time pouring over stuff I won't then use, and making an in-depth backstory for a character I won't play, because maybe Star Wars would rather I not.

My classic fallback plot for this setting is something along the lines of "His education cut short by the tumultuous events of the final days of the Clone Wars, Ender was forced to flee into the vast galaxy, with nothing but his immediate possessions, and a knowledge that he was one of the most sought after, hunted beings in existence. Finding himself on a strange planet, far from home, his Master, or the Order, he was forced to fall back on the skills that, in some ways, drew the Jedi to him in the first place. He learned to be self-sufficient, self-reliant, and to not talk about himself. He became one more with the land, and the people around him, blending in with all of the other faceless nameless souls who now called the Galactic Empire home."

Of course, over the course of the usual game, the party finds him, and the call to serve gets in. He must pick up his lightsaber, last gift from his Master, his Force powers, rusty from several years of neglect, and a few other things to put on the air of being someone else, and travel back into the galaxy that turned its back on him, and that he turned his back on, as well, and fight make it a better place.

So, he's usually a Jedi with other skills, or the other thing with some Jedi skills, and his time among the learned was cut short. I'll poke through the book and see if this archetype is even easily doable. Please wish me luck.

venkelos said:

Not straight from character creation, no, but then this sort of character isn't really starting character material. With a couple of hundred XP? Sure, easily doable.

AluminiumWolf said:

I dont particularly disagree, I just think that is part of the plan. I would point out that FFG didnt make Dark Heresy in the first place tho.

I almost think that Star Wars should be made as some mostly-related games if for no other reason than the sweet spot. For a fringer game having the sweet spot be designed in different than one for a Jedi Order game would be useful. That seems to be part of what they are trying to design into the 40k system, to varying degrees of success.

I think what it boiled down to was they could either put out a book with the non-Jedi stuff, or a book with only jedi stuff. Looked at that way, since the Jedi will have to do a bunch of non-Jedi stuff in their carrer, but few non-Jedi will ever need the Jedi stuff, it almost mandates that the non-Jedi stuff come out first.

I think that the biggest problem is that the development cycle is too long.

venkelos said:

Uh… did you completely pass over the Mercenary Soldier talent tree? That's got officer written all over it.

Cyril said:

Yes, yes I did. I've been more pouring over the Force, and sometimes whining. A friend of mine spent an hour+ looking at the book, while I was playing ME3, and he said no Officer "class". Oh well, I oopsed. The number of things I'll say about this game, and then get corrected, it'll happen a few times. If I decide to go without Force powers, this could be a good alternate "my usual character type" option. Thanks.

Warlander said:

When I ran D6 Star Wars I was up front with all my players that there could only be 1 jedi and that if they used force powers and it was reconised by witness as such I would roll a D6 and that was how long untill an imperial task force arrived to quarinten the planet to search location for the jedi. It madefor some intence roleplay as the jedi wondered if they could use there powers and sometimes have to use them

Moglwi said:

I did almost the same thing.

venkelos said:

With the risk of sounding crazy, you could also try to play something other than your usual character.

Slaunyeh said:

+1

Much as I usually enjoy playing lightsaber wielding, heroic do-gooder Jedi types, I'm having a blast playing a Near-Human ex-CorSec character whose an unrepentant smart-ass in Cyril's Skype game, and he's about as sensitive to the Force as a rock.

And in his EotE demo game, i played a Force-sensitive Smuggler/Scoundrel that has only the barest inklings about the Force and has all the foibles, insecurities, and bravado that come with being a teenager (a blend of the Kid and Young Jedi templates from WEG's d6 system).

Slaunyeh said:

While I see what you are saying, I play STAR WARS for their "unique" character class. If I wanted to play a non-Jedi, there are numerous other games I would play. Sorry, it's just my limitation as a player. I like wizards, and that means in D&D, I play Wizards,in WoT, I play Wilders, and in Star Wars, I play Jedi. If for no other reason, I am often the more serious player in a group of my friends, and often take some leadership, so they can screw off doing other crap. I often like a character type who would seem like the leader, since I often get the role.

Moglwi said:

We did that, too. I was the only "real" Jedi, with knowledge of the former Order, and a lightsaber, and the kid was a prodigy after the Order fell. His powers were more and better, after I weakened through booze and self-revulsion, but he had a blaster, and I had the lightsaber, the very superior weapon (I was 5d6, I believe, with it, while his blaster was 3d6; my blaster skill was worse, though). My GM did the song of "if you do something "Jedi-like", you risk calling down the Empire on YOU, and your group." During that game, I did refrain from calling on the Force most of the time, not liking the memories using it dredged up (longest sober span that man had experienced in over a decade) and my lightsaber was hidden in a sleeve sheath, much like Palpatine's. I only used either during a big moment, when we were aboard a "secret" facility, where we were recovering the two B-Wing prototypes, and the only people we saw were Rebels, most of which were dead, or would rejoice at the presence of a Jedi, and Stormtroopers, who we had to eliminate, leaving few people to speak of seeing a lightsaber. It did help me draw fire, as every Stormtrooper who saw the blade erupt in the mist-filled room knew to fear, and fired upon it, letting the rest of my group get out of the room healthy. My deflecting saved my bacon, and after I got out, we had a narrow hallway to funnel the baddies through, without cover of fog, and finished them. The rest of the game, and even the initial boarding of the station, I used a blaster pistol that I SUCKED with, but that was part of the character. It ended out in one of the asteroid tunnels, where I found a larval space slug, and it "killed" me, while I bisected its face. The GM claimed that, right before the kill blow would claim me, I saw a flash, and the spirit of Obi-Wan Kenobi appeared. I was on the brink, but alive, and still able to move. He told me the Force had not abandoned me, and that I still had things to do. Part of this was probably due to my bitching that, in d6, even I couldn't improve a force power without external training, meaning even Yoda couldn't get better alone, and this was a clue that i might find someone who could advise me, while I was sober. I limped through the rest of the place, and we boarded the B-Wings. We got out from firing range of the Imperials, and stopped before we returned to the Rebels. Never got in another session of the game, as half the players moved.

So yes, I know of, and can do the "don't behave like a Jedi" plan, but like Kenobi, sometimes you just need to be able to whip the cool stuff out.

$hamrock said:

It's even less the balance issues (Seriously, Sorceror is the SAME THING as Sage, the powers just look like rocks instead of lightning). And more that the Dark Siders have MUCH better stories because they got written later.

Dulahan said:

That assessment isn't exactly true… Sorceror and Sage are "supposed" to be the same thing, but the mechanics of how they work are not.

I will try to explain…

In the game you get your damage from 2 sources… The attack "Type" (gun, force, tech, and melee) and the damage type (elemental, energy, internal, and kinetic)… in theory one could have about any combination of the types to form an attack.

So a sorc goes off Force and elemental for damage. Neither of those attack types are avoidable (can't dodge, armor is useless against them, etc…). When they hit you, you take 100% of the damage they deal. Even the armor you get has exceptionally low resistances to elemental, so "buffing" that route is almost useless.

Now the sage, on the other hand, their damage goes off Force and kinetic…. The force is unavoidable, but there are significant resistances for kinetic damage. Almost all armor supplies a decent resistance for kinetic damage. So, as another character fighting a sage, I roughly take 75% of the damage they deal (50 from the force, and 25 from the kinetic).

All things considered, in a fight, all things being equal- the sorc would win every single time. The difference is small, but in the world of MMO twitch PvP, that difference is all it takes.

I played an extremely geared out vanguard. Had the best armor from the 25 mans and comparable PvP armor. In one on one battle I would lose to the evil force user almost every time. It wasn't my play, it was their extras. It just wasn't fun to play the guy any longer, and I had no desire to be an evil character so….

Again, this is how it was when I stopped playing (a few months ago), and was a primary reason I stopped playing. They may well have fixed the issues.by now, then again I agreed with the dark side being stronger. It is and should be stronger, it just doesn't make for a balanced PvP game.

Cyril said:

He was a moisture farmer and airspeeder until the campaign started, then he became Obi-Wan's apprentice (at most) halfway through the first adventure.

The only issue I have with the force user stuff in this book is that, IMO, the outer rim is exactly the place where non jedi force users belong, and (again, IMO) it shouldn't be as hard as it is to build one from chargen.

[edit] @thread: In my experience, while Jedi don't get played all the time (except in the case of that one guy in every group that insists on being a jedi every time) force users get played quite a lot. More often than soldiers, from what I've seen.

Inksplat said:

And a point of contention in every edition, that most people I ever met detested.

I think technicians are the wizard class of EotE. They have every tool, can solve any problem, and make anything with a power cell explode.

doctorbadwolf said:

That's my point though. He spent 19 years being a moisture farmer and an airspeeder pilot. He is learning to become a Jedi over the next several years. He was not brought up in the Jedi temple, learning how to control this power from a young age.

Jedi with a capital "J" aren't the focus of the game. Rogue Force-users using their powers for sometimes dubious and self-serving purposes? Hell yes. But not Jedi proper.

doctorbadwolf said:

Exactly, but it also happens to be the area where the general populace has the most to gain from say…. a 100K credit reward, for any information leading to the death or capture of a jedi, and the don't give a crap if they are traitors or not.

Double-edged sword.

Cyril said:

But a system for Star Wars is going to have to do Jedi. Starkiller or Mace Windu in the Tartakovsky Clone Wars cartoon even http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7A07WNupEXk .

AluminiumWolf said:

And as has been explained already - that despite the focus of this game of star wars being the 'Edge of the Empire', you can play a Jedi type character straight out of the gate. However, you will not be playing at any level near Mace Windu, Starkiller, or Mr Chosen One himslef, Anakin Skywalker for quite some time. Which is at it should be for a game based on the fringes of society.

Jedi are certainly part of the appeal and uniqueness of star wars but not everyone sees them as the most important part of the setting and most people playing 'Edge of the Empire' will be happy with the game style that it emulates. There will be an opportunity later in the release schedule for uber-powerful jedi, but this game is not focused on their exploits.

But you already know this…….

Those of us that have the game book are happy to answer questions about how things can be modeled, based on the rules in the book that we have, which is still undergoing beta testing. And Mr AluminiumWolf you have brought up some interesting points in this and other threads that have been answered with solid demonstrations of the rules by players with much more insight than myself. I, for one, have found the answers to your initial questions to be very insightful and have helped me to develop a better understanding of what can be achieved with the rules as written. So don't stop asking questions that test the rules of Edge of the Empire.

However, as part of an unwritten agreement between those asking the questions and those answering them, if your question has been answered and you are unable to challenge the answer based on the rules of the book (which I believe you do not have at this time), then please learn to either accept what people say and move on or if you feel that your version of star wars cannot be made with the rules at hand then please feel free to find another game that might fit what you as a player are looking for, and enjoy that game as much as many of us are enjoying Edge of the Empire.

Like I have said before though, the thing is that when they were making Dark Heresy for 40k people also said that the focus wasn't on Space Marine/Inquisitors/Temple Assassins so it didn't matter that there were no rules for them as they would come later.

And then, perhaps shockingly, when years later the rules for Space Marines/Inquisitors/Temple Assassins turned up they were pretty rubbish because the system wasn't designed with them in mind.

So it doesn't matter if there are no Jedi in this game. The system still has to be able to do Jedi. And well!

And you have your answers for that concern in numerous other threads, you just seem to ignore them.

Jegergryte said:

I dunno. Using more powerful weapons than the system was intended for with no matching increase in damage taking ability leads to… Glass Cannons. Systems often suffer scaling problems as you throw more dice than was intended. And the force powers don't seem to even have defences, so how is that going to work when people are really good at them?

I guess in the end there are not a vast number of systems that work for everything from Jar Jar Binks to Mace Windu, and I don't really see why this one would be any different.