So, I am flipping through my beta, scratching my head in confusion (I've played 3 prior versions of Star Wars RPG, and have enough of a grasp of what I thought FFG would use as a core mechanic (the 40k books) that I thought I'd know what they would be pulling, but hell no). I understand that, like a few other variants, they are trying to sidestep broken Jedi characters by not giving them as an option; Jedi are better, and should be better, than many other class types, in the usual linear fighter vs quadratic wizard argument, and balancing them is a *****, perhaps best dealt with by, as they have, not giving us an option, getting us to play any something else by force, and making us wait to pick it up, at double cost, later, after proving our worth, but I just shake my head at this; we (me) play Star Wars games so we(me) can be Jedi, not some smuggler dimwit, or a Stormtrooper with inferior armor, and better aim. In the MMORPG, other class types are certainly worth it, but my Guardian is the best character, with the best story, and arguably one the best/my favorite Companion characters (Kira Carsen), while the other classes don't even get Force-related missions/Companions/etc. Even the Consular's story seems a smidge inferior to me, based on who the endgame entails (don't want to spoil it).

My point of this thread, however, is a little question. So, I want to build, in this system, the closest thing to my self-taught Jedi possible, and want to know if I am reading this right. For fun, my Jedi to be was an apprentice of Anya Kuro (The Dark Woman) up to the end of the Clone Wars. After this, he is separated from her, and forced to eek out a living in secret, out on the Outer Rim. His knowledge of the Force is more verbal/educational than practice, so building with another class seems fine. I have to pick a Profession, likely Hired Gun or Explorer, maybe Colonist, and then pick up a unique second or third Specialization, F-S Exile. Now, say I want to increase my FR to more than 1 (assuming there's a reason; I didn't really see one, but I was being stupid/amd at the time). I need to purchase 3 or 5 talents (depending on line I am following, JUST to buy Force Rating, which gets me to 2, and then I cannot increase it again? (It only appears once on that table, and no other table). Between that and making lightsabers AWESOME, but not giving me a good way to get one (they are usually illegal, and presented by your Master, who will be conveniently absent, in this setting), and not giving me the Skill to improve using them, it is abundantly clear that they would rather I pretend this isn't Star Wars, game of battling JEDI, regardless of setting (GL has done wonders? when permitted to escape the grasp of his coloring book, to add available Jedi fodder to the galaxy, after Yoda tells Luke he's the only one left). It could just be the beta, and more could be included later, or another whole splat book could devote to the Force and it's users, but giving me so little, in what I view as one of the most important things smacks of stupid. I couldn't even easily stat Vader, if he came hunting my Force-Sensitive pawn (I know, based on lvl, he doesn't really need stats; I'm dead), because they felt a need to leave so much Jedi stuff out.

So what's the point? Am I reading the mechanical part right? Am I reading too much into this? I'm sorry to just whine, but Star Wars is one of my favorite things ever, and I am very nerdy about it; I don't have a life-size cardboard cut out of Darth Vader, or anything, but I certainly believe myself to be an aficionado, as do most people I bore to death with details regarding the topic. Getting through West End's d6 was a pain, and they made one work for Jedi, too, leading into the ease of d20 and Saga d20, so getting hit with this complex, symbol-laden nightmare, and then seeing that they effectively try to ignore my most important character type, it just scares me, a little.

"You must unlearn what you have learned."
- Yoda

I think one of the major points, at least for the Beta version of this game, is that Force-users aren't meant to be front-and-center, and let's face it, when a Jedi shows up in the party, they tend to take a leading role far more often than not. From personal experience, the only two timid Jedi I've seen in play through playing all the various versions of the Star Wars RPG was one that I played myself (Legacy Era, but he very quickly grew out, and by 5th level was much more confident, but being a Force-wielding badass on par with Starkiller tends to do that) and the second in a semester-long d6 campaign where the player just wasn't big on social interaction and preferred to stay out of the spotlight; guy and his character were so meek that I can't even remember their names, only that his character wound up being dubbed a "flaming Jedi" due to being set on fire at one point by Jodo Kast.

With the rules as they are written, it's difficult to build a "minor Jedi apprentice," but it is possible. The issue is (and you're not alone in expressing this) is that a lot of the things we tend to associate with Jedi aren't permissable right out of the gate, namely someone that got proper Jedi training. You're going to have to sacrifice things to make this character, namely the lightsaber (which is nearly broketastic and in no way should be allowed in a staring player's hands). And like d6, to be a Force-user (even potentially a Jedi) at this point, you're going to have to wait to be awesome later, rather than being awesome right out the gate like you could with the d20 versions (Saga Edition especially if you chose the right powers and took Skill Focus in Use the Force by 2nd level). Given the way Force Powers are currently written, once you reach those higher tiers of ability, you are going to be a very dominant force (no pun intended), being able to twist minds and hurl telekinetic death with relative ease.

In the case of your example, since it's probably been close to 20 years since the Clone Wars and Order 66, your former apprentice has probably forgotten a lot of minor things from their days as a bright-eyed Padawan learner, or had to focus on things more conducive to survival and staying hidden from the Empire's watchful eyes. So they've got the Force-Sensitive Exile, with those talents representing the character's new focus on staying alive and their unstructured growth in the Force rather than fighting bad guys and having a learned mentor guide their early development. As for your starting career, choose one that reflects if your character was being trained as a Guardian (Bounty Hunter or Hired Gun), Consular (Colonist or Explorer), or Sentinel (Explorer or Scoundrel). Ask your GM if you can buy a rank in a Lightsaber skill with your staring XP to reflect the little bit of combat training your character still remembers; it'll be expensive and may not do you a whole lot of good, but it's a tie back to your character's early training. And when you finally do get your hands a lightsaber, it'll will be something both memorable and awesome, rather then just "oh, got my lightsaber, ho-hum."

For myself, I adapted an old D6 character, a blend of the Kid and Young Jedi templates, into EotE, and had no problems. But then again, I wasn't trying to make an uber-gifted Force-user either; less of a Skywalker and more of a Zayne Carrick (KOTOR comic series). Now I'd love for this kid to become a Jedi apprentice and take those major steps towards becoming a Jedi, but I'm also content to wait and let him grow into the role, giving me something to shoot for rather than having it handed over right off the bat.

I think with the rules as they currently stand, the two main points to remember is that Jedi aren't the focus of the game (a common complaint leveled at all three of the d20 versions) and that you're following the Luke Skywalker path to Jedi-hood (just without a wise old mentor to give you the gift of an everglowin' beatstick o' doom).

Dono hit all the right points.

Whether you like it or not - Jedi are not the focus of Edge of the Empire.

It's the classic era. Jedi are nearly extinct. Those that do exist are in hiding, and most of them have turned their collective backs on their previous life, hiding or destroying their lightsabers and starting over again to avoid drawing attention to themselves.

Is it possible your might be able to find one through play and convince him to "come out of retirement" and teach you how to be a Jedi proper? Hell, yes it is, but it's not something that's going to happen out of the gate. How long was Luke a moisture farmer and an airspeeder pilot before he met Obi-Wan?

Long story short, Edge of the Empire wasn't designed to be the high-powered, lightsaber swinging, Force fueled affair that Saga Edition was. If it's a playstyle that you don't enjoy, then you might want to stick with something like Saga Edition until Force and Destiny comes out and see if that is more your cup of tea.

There are a few points to make.

First, the time period. Jedi are in short supply. Those that are around are hiding, well, because Vader has proven rather effective at ending them. You really have to think about this…. Yoda ran! He being the "most powerful" Jedi of the clone wars era… that says a lot. There is no problem with playing a jedi, but here is the part alot of people tend to forget…. The general populace is against you as well. There are bounties on Jedi heads, there are rewards to anyone providing information that results in the capture/death of a jedi, the common folk think they are "evil" (due to imperial propaganda. Remember the Jedi were turned on, and the common populace was told they were traitors. So, "role playing" a Jedi, isn't the same as "ROLL playing" a Jedi. They can't have witnesses, they can't "eliminate" the witnesses (due to the code), so what would be the point in playing them? All power, hardly ever able to use it.

The former is assuming you're playing in the era the books are written for. That said, you're under no obligation to do that. However, that is the era that the game is written for, and FFG is under no obligation to provide you content for any other.

Second, a Jedi book is coming… it wont be for a few years, but it's coming. You could just wait and buy that. A person wanting to play a space marine was under no obligation to play/own rogue trader. You're complaining at the order they are releasing them, but most players don't play a jedi, and, again, the era frowns upon such, so even when the jedi version does come out, I can't see it being entire groups of them. (again, Vader is not far behind).

Comparing the game to KOTOR, TOR, or any other game is useless, and unfair. Those time periods have more then a few Jedi running around. Expecting FFG to re-write canon, for your amusement, will upset a ton of the Star Wars purists, myself included. I am willing to sacrifice some elements of power, for a great, centered, story.

What you're doing by getting upset about the lack of Jedi, is akin to trying to put a square peg in a round hole. The game is centered on the "other characters", Bossk, 4Lom, Dash, Owen, etc… I for one adore the approach they have taken, but I guess you can't win them all.

Rather then trying to say "my jedi"…. x. why don't you say, my character had a bit less apprentice training under the dark lady, and is akin to a force sensitive, he/she has more potential, however for reason x my training/apprenticeship stopped?

I have no clue whom your GM is, but if it were me… the character you were presenting would either be exceptionally limited in where/when it could "shine", or it would outright be dead, in short order.

Personally, I have played every version of star wars RPG, and I find this approach to be the best taken, yet. It ensures fun for the other 4 or 5 players at the table (that are not playing a Jedi).

$hamrock

P.S. The real Jedi didn't have their lightsabers handed to them by their masters…. they made them.

Edit for the PS.

$hamrock said:

I dunno - if you look at the population stats for TOR, dudes with sabres are the most popular classes.

For that matter, it seems they should start with Sith!

With a bit of tweaking, you can actually make a Jedi without much trouble. You just go with two specialisations that cover your general skills, and then the Force Exile specilisation. Then, all you need to do is tweak Force Rating so it counts as a characteristic, so you can increase it with either XP at character creation or with Dedication talent purchases, and you're done, since the powers covered in the book cover the majority of Light Force Powers.

AluminiumWolf said:

Point! But you're talking about an MMO, that is unfairly PvP balanced (at least it was) towards Dark Side saber chuckers. Of course everyone in an MMO is going to play the "most powerful" class, especially in regards to PvP.

I was referring to the RPG games with pen and paper, where in said era I have never experienced more then 1 jedi in a group of 4-5 players at a time. Once I had 2 jedi in a party, but the period was clone wars and pre purge.

My games have mostly been four to six characters, with one untrained force sensitive. Jedi who did pop into the story tended to be NPCs. Indeed one major arc had us acting as the eyes and hands of a Jedi-in-hidding because she couldn't go anywere without risking Vader hunting her down.

The longest running campaign and biggest group I ever ran was 8 players, four of which were force sensitive, two of which where Jedi. This was set during the vong invasion.

In my experience Jedi characters is something I have to convince my players to play - if I feel it is needed for the game. Most want to play anything but jedi, partly because its not fun - this is perhaps due to me being a sw purist and if its set during rebellion era, I kill them unless they're real clever, and if its set during any other era, I slap them around with prejudice and the council micro managing them, until they learn what it means to be a Jedi… which is not a saber jockey being cheesy and cheeky in my book.

Comparing SWTOR to EotE or any pnp rpg is silly at best. Of the roughly 800 000 or so (whatever the figure is now) that plays that game, most have not played a "real" rpg, and by "real" I mean pen and paper (you may disagree, but then roleplaying might mean something different than playing a character and immersing yourself in a story, rather than whacking imps over the head with an overrated flashlight). I myself play swtor, and while I have a jedi character, I focus mainly on the fun classes, trooper and smuggler. Being on an rp servers it is disappointing to be surrounding by bland two-dimensional jedi character swinging their sabers around, being all mystical and weird… most of which have no outside knowledge of the tradition they are supposed to represent.. I mean, they haven't even played KOTOR. The challenge in playing a jedi is also to stay true to the "jediness" … which most players in my experience seem to have not grasp of, or they find it too difficult to stay true to it… an easy option is going dark or grey, but even then the blandness becomes irritating. This is my experience, and I hope to be proven wrong soon, if any of my players are up to it I don't know.

I have a friend who related an interesting anecdote to me.

George Lucas himself has made it clear in numerous planning sessions for the stories behind LucasArts games and the Clone Wars series that Force Sensitivity can "go away" or "lessen". That was always his intent, he explained. It's like a muscle. If you don't use it for a period of time, it atrophies (and in some cases, abandons you altogether). Other extreme circumstances can also warrant removal of The Force's gift.

So, you have a handful of "Jedi in Hiding" during the Dark Times. They can't use the Force - because they want to remain hidden and alive. After 10 or 20 years of this, their powers will either partially or completely diminish.

This explains Master Rahm Kota (The Force Unleashed) having his connection to the Force "cut" (as he puts it), after losing his eyesight and entering a hell of mental depression and drunken anguish. It also explains how Yoda (while still powerful) had to really close his eyes and concentrate to lift an X-Wing out of the swamp of Dagobah - whereas we see him smashing transport ships together like pinatas in mid-atmosphere in Genndy Tartatofsky's Clone Wars series. But both of these individuals (while their abilities were reduced) still had the knowledge to teach others. ;-)

So consider that.

And then consider that it's not entirely unreasonable to have a Jedi-in-hiding who's nowhere near as powerful as his predecessors (or himself, during the Clone Wars).

Just an observation, bringing in some knowledge from Uncle George. :-)

AluminiumWolf said:

At the point of belaboring the obvious point, TOR is set in an entirely different than Edge of the Empire. It's like comparing oranges to parakeets, and saying a pet store should only stock oranges because those are so much more popular.

GM Chris said:

Why don't you just go ahead and say you're good buddies with Sam Witwer already?

Heck, not like he hasn't been on the podcast before or anything

But that is a good point about one's Force "muscles" (for lack of a better term) atrophying from disuse.

It makes sense too - it's not like you'd not get rusty at picking locks, or programming, or even shooting a gun if you didn't do it for a decade or two. Why should the Force be any different?

MILLANDSON said:

It would be a case of the knowledge is there, you've just forgotten the mental techniques involved in using that knowledge.

Try getting a roleplayer to accept a loss of levels though!

:0)

AluminiumWolf said:

Loss of levels was pretty normal in D&D prior to 4e.

Inksplat said:

Why do you think they took it out!

Donovan Morningfire said:

I don't think there is much percentage in trying to pretend people don't want to play Jedi though.

--

I think there might be mileage to be had in the Force Unleashed period - all the classic Star Wars elements, but slightly more Jedi running about.

Well, there will be a book for them. I can't speak to the wisdom of FFG publishing the book of hot-hot Jedi-on-Sith action last, they are producing it. If the order of books was reversed, we'd be having this same discussion the other direction, with whining from the fringer/scoundrel croud.

AluminiumWolf said:

Very easy. Backstory.

Why can't your starting-level PC Padawan-on-the-Run do the sorts of things now that they used to be able to do back at the Temple or during the Clone Wars? It's been too long since they last did those kinds of things, and after years on the run, the ability to tap into that power as atrophied.

Or, take a page from the 2nd KOTOR game, and your PC suffered through something so horribly traumatic (like the backlash of all those Jedi deaths caused by Order 66) that they ended up shutting themselves off from the Force entirely, and only now (at the start of the campaign) have they sought to try and re-awaken those abilities. It'd be akin to being born and raised to use your right hand for everything, and then suddenly having that hand badly mangled in an accident, and thus have to relearn how to do those same things with your left hand.

Sounds easy in theory, but it can be a lot harder than people think, as was proven by an old friend of mine that lost his right hand entirely because some bozo wasn't doing his own job properly. He eventually re-trained himself, but it took him a long time to do it.

Quicksilver said:

Well, from their end, it probably makes a lot of sense. By starting with the less popular character types you can probably get people to buy the book again when their favourite characters come on line, where as if you started with Jedi they might not feel the need to get the smuggler book that came out later.

The statement that FFG is going with the "less" popular is simple and bad rhetoric inferred from an assumption based on an MMO and your own preferences (even though they be shared with many). Which I guess is fine, but ignores the fact (what I see as a fact anyway) that the classic trilogy is (still) the most famous and appreciated Star Wars setting. It's the originals, its the basis for all the other SW stuff put out there later. Additionally the data basis is poor and not necessarily representative for the community as a whole, which also makes the statement silly - as silly as say… that no one wants to play jedi, which is not the point.

Take the reactions to the changes made to the original films by a legion of fans, heck they made a documentary about those reactions. Greedo shooting first, that simpleton from episode ii and iii being put into the end of episode vi..

Its the star wars version everyone loves, or "everyone" I guess, since some prefer flashlight waving thugs on steroids.

FFG has gone ahead and made a game about the "real" star wars, the first, the classic. That means no Jedi, or practically no Jedi at least.

I am more perplexed about the fact that they didn't make the rebellion book first.

AluminiumWolf said:

i don't get all these assertions that FFG have made a mistake by leaving jedi till last. clearly the the beta sold out, i would be shocked if the actual production release does not sell out and require subsequent print runs.

jedi being the most popular is based on what? statistics from an MMO set in another timeframe and i assume personal experience? i'd argue that classes that appeal in a PC game are not necessarily a 1 to 1 to a table top roleplaying game.

when i was a kid running around the school yard after seeing star wars at the theatre everyone wanted to be han solo. when i played TOR i played a bounty hunter. when we played SW RPGs (WEG, d20 and then saga) we've had a total of 2 jedi characters over the decades. in my experience jedi are the minority, i don't have the temerity to state that my experiences are the norm and lambast the community for disagreeing with me.

the approach FFG has taken is set. if you don't like it then stick to other RPGs or house rule this one to suit. bottom line find a system that you want to play and have fun.

Jegergryte said:

Careful. As you have your opinion, there are just as many people out there that believe the prequels are the "real" Star Wars or even eras that exist outside of the movies.

There is not such thing as "real" Star Wars. Everything is Star Wars. You just get to pick and choose what makes it into your game.

As for not starting with the Rebellion book, as far as I can tell, they're looking at building up through the books. We start on the Outer Rim where the characters have little more than the clothes on their back, a trusty blaster pistol, and a beat up freighter. Then we get to the Rebellion, where they actually have some military assets, allowing the characters to do more. When we get to Force and Destiny, the characters will supposedly have much higher level Force abilities to rely on, allowing them the ability to do even more.

*shrug*

Diff'rent strokes, diff'rent folks.

When I first started playing and running Star Wars Second Edition eighteen years ago, the first character I helped a fellow player create was a Young Jedi, and every campaign I've ever played or run has had a minimum of one Force User (not to mention one freighter captain with grand plans for a slightly modified light freighter). And with the exception of two players who didn't play all that much (one of whom has since been banned from my gaming table), all were well-played, even compared to post-prequel standards.

West End's materials took the stance that in spite of everything the Empire did during the Galactic Civil War era, there were still small numbers of Force Users, even Jedi-type Force Users, scattered around the Galaxy (and even in the wake of Order 66 and the Jedi Purge, it's workable. Once the large concentrations of Jedi and the near-legendary figures of the Council were gone, the Purge largely died off as the New Order turned their attention to other matters, such as consolidating their hold on as much of the galaxy as possible. Then the problem became finding the remnants, rather than just killing them). The RPGs that followed generally went with this stance to some degree. It's a stance that works, really, given that if you take away the Force and the legends of the Jedi, Star Wars becomes no different from any other typical space opera setting, right down to the character archetypes.

Which is not to complain about the order of FFG's release of the books, as I plan to buy all three. It just bears mentioning.

FFG is making a new game system from scratch. Seems like a good idea to get the mechanics down a bit before they start trying to ram the harder stuff in.

Besides, it almost seems to me that they are paralleling the original movies. First is about the fringe, second is about the rebellion and third is about the jedi.