Hi, I have a couple doubts about SaF…1) If I discard the Balrog through Dark Pit have I won the game or is the 1 progress needed in the third quest card (Last Lord of Moria) in order to win ?…The phrasing on the quest cards lets you think you only need to get rid of the Balrog… but where's the need to add that progress token then ?…2) Can Durin's Bane have more than 27 damage tokens on him ?…Since he doesn't die with the 27th damage I thought it would be possible (just like you can put more than the written number of progress tokens on a quest card)…If you know the right answers let me know. Thanks
Doubts about phrasing in Shadow and Flame
Once you have removed the Balrog with the Dark Pit's effect you have won. You don't need a progress point (so they should have just put an "-" instead of "1").
Regarding damage on the Balrog: there's been no clear answer that I know of. Thematically I play that he cannot have more than 27 damage, since otherwise it's too easy to get him to get a guaranteed pass when you discard cards for the Dark Pik (just get him to 30+ damage).
I'd agree with you…but thematically you should not be allowed to put more progress tokens on a location the the printed number of progress tokens…and you cando that though…so I thought it was more or less the same thing…why would I be able to put 15 or 30 progress tokens on the first JATA questcard while the troll is in play if I cannot go anywhere ? (since we're on a shore ambushed by a troll ?)…hope they'll clear that up…
ricedwilt is right that there hasn't been any official commentary on DB and excess damage, but I'd argue that you CAN indeed place damage on the Balrog in excess of its 27 hit points. On page 19 of the rule book, the combat diagram shows a Silverlode Archer receiving six damage counters even though it only has a single hit point. Additionally, the entry on "Hit Points and Damage" (p.20) notes that one damage token is placed on the enemy "[f]or each point of damage dealt." This seemingly occurs irrespective of whether the damaged character/enemy is actually destroyed by those counters.
So, it seems that damage counters can be placed on a card even when the amount of counters exceeds the card's remaining hit points. Normally, this results in a destroyed character, but DB's Indestructible keyword saves the Balrog from defeat. To me, it's apparent that you can continue to damage DB as much as you like.
Remember that DB has the Regenerate keyword. So you have to constantly do damage to him, so, to me, it is possible to put more damage than the 27, so that when you discar to Dark Pit.
If i remember correctly the Regenerate works in the refresh phase and before you refresh your caracters, so if you have 27 damage on DB, when you do the refresh action on Dark Pit it will have already regenerate 3 damage.
Am I seeing it correctly?
Correct. According to the rules insert (for WitW and S&F, I believe) Regenerate occurs "before player actions," so Durin's Bane will heal before you can trigger Dark Pit.
I always play this as if I have to place one progress marker on the quest card. If it wasn't necessary to place any progress there, why is there a value of 1 instead of 0 like it used to be when you only have to fullfill a certain condition? I think the card is badly worded, but to me it's clear that the card text just wants to tell you that you can't win the quest before you remoe the Balrog from the game. That doesn't mean that a player can ignore the requested progress on the quest card.
Yeah…I think you're right…just very bad phrasing…
leptokurt said:
I always play this as if I have to place one progress marker on the quest card. If it wasn't necessary to place any progress there, why is there a value of 1 instead of 0 like it used to be when you only have to fullfill a certain condition? I think the card is badly worded, but to me it's clear that the card text just wants to tell you that you can't win the quest before you remoe the Balrog from the game. That doesn't mean that a player can ignore the requested progress on the quest card.
I agree with Leptokurt. If 1 progress wasn't required than there would be a 0. I play that 1 progress is required (which hopefully isn't too hard to get once the Balrog is destroyed).
starhawk77 said:
ricedwilt is right that there hasn't been any official commentary on DB and excess damage, but I'd argue that you CAN indeed place damage on the Balrog in excess of its 27 hit points. On page 19 of the rule book, the combat diagram shows a Silverlode Archer receiving six damage counters even though it only has a single hit point. Additionally, the entry on "Hit Points and Damage" (p.20) notes that one damage token is placed on the enemy "[f]or each point of damage dealt." This seemingly occurs irrespective of whether the damaged character/enemy is actually destroyed by those counters.
So, it seems that damage counters can be placed on a card even when the amount of counters exceeds the card's remaining hit points. Normally, this results in a destroyed character, but DB's Indestructible keyword saves the Balrog from defeat. To me, it's apparent that you can continue to damage DB as much as you like.
Starhawk, wouldn't your argument for excess damage on a low-hit point character nullify certain enemy card effects, specifically 2 troll enemies (Hill Troll & Cave Troll(?)) ? If I can place all the damage on 1 character, past there actual HP's, then I wouldn't have to raise my threat (Hill Troll) or damage another character (Cave Troll). I realize you might only be talking about enemy cards but you also mentioned the Silverlode Archer taking 6 damage tokens.