Expert Handling and Barrel Roll

By ironchefzod, in X-Wing

Posted at

Tawnos said:

drkjedi35 said:

There is no such thing as a Barrel Roll "maneuver". Barrel Roll is only an action. Just because you use a maneuver template, does not make it a maneuver. Both Barrel Roll and Expert Handling still happen during the "Perform Action" step of the "Activation Phase". Think about it like this. Maneuvers are executed and Actions are performed. The first sentence on the Expert Handling card reads "Perform a barrel roll." So if you use Expert Handling you will have to perform a Barrel Roll. Therefore you cannot perform another Barrel Roll this round.

Roy

I disagree. To me, an Action is defined by either a) using a defined Action from the rule book that is allowed by your pilot, or b) activating the Action: portion of a card. The results of activating those Actions are not Actions in and of themselves. Just because Expert Handling causes you to "perform a barrel roll" doesn't mean that Expert Handling is both an "Expert Handling Action" AND a "Barrel Roll Action".

To illustrate what I'm saying:

  • Action: Barrel Roll
  • Result: Perform a barrel roll.
  • Action: Expert Handling
  • Result: Perform a barrel roll + fluff.

The rules state that you cannot take the same Action twice in a turn. They do not disallow taking different actions that yield the same result, or performance, or maneuver, or whatever other undefined term we choose to use.

Again, everything said on this topic up to with point is conjecture. We won't know for sure what the intent of the rules is until someone from on high at FF let's us know. But until then, in my games, Vader can use Barrel Roll and Expert Handling in the same turn.

When I started reading this forum it seemed so obviouse, the you can never do the same action twice rule seemed pretty obviouse. but after reading your post I have changed my mind 100%.

In my opinion the current rules are too vauge to adiquiately answer this question and we need a FAQ answer from FFG

Posted at

Yeah, that's pretty much why I asked the question. Does FFG not do official responses in their own forums? Just when they release FAQ?

Posted at

ironchefzod said:

Yeah, that's pretty much why I asked the question. Does FFG not do official responses in their own forums? Just when they release FAQ?

They do not. If you'd like an official response, either wait for the FAQ or scroll to the very bottom of the page and click on the link entitled "Rules Questions". If you get a reply, please post here.

Posted at

radiskull said:

ironchefzod said:

Yeah, that's pretty much why I asked the question. Does FFG not do official responses in their own forums? Just when they release FAQ?

They do not. If you'd like an official response, either wait for the FAQ or scroll to the very bottom of the page and click on the link entitled "Rules Questions". If you get a reply, please post here.

It's mostly a matter of "when", not "if" - I haven't heard of a rules question that FFG hasn't answered. When they're busy, it can take a week or two, when they're not, I've had questions answered within 1-2 days.

Posted at

haslo said:

It's mostly a matter of "when", not "if" - I haven't heard of a rules question that FFG hasn't answered. When they're busy, it can take a week or two, when they're not, I've had questions answered within 1-2 days.

And they're apparently busy because I'm still waiting for an answer to this one. Considering my last post here was on the 31st I'm thinking that's when I sent it in.

Posted at

radiskull said:

ironchefzod said:

Yeah, that's pretty much why I asked the question. Does FFG not do official responses in their own forums? Just when they release FAQ?

They do not. If you'd like an official response, either wait for the FAQ or scroll to the very bottom of the page and click on the link entitled "Rules Questions". If you get a reply, please post here.

Ah thank you. I'm used to posting questions in official forums and did not know there was a specific link.

Posted at

The book clearly states, you can never do the same action twice, even if one of them is a free action.

Posted at

ferris1971 said:

The book clearly states, you can never do the same action twice, even if one of them is a free action.

I agree.

However, I believe that some people are suggesting that the "barrel roll" from Expert Handling is not the same as the Barrel Roll action.

I personally don't see this possibility, but I think that's their thought. If they are different, then they could both be used.

Posted at

ferris1971 said:

The book clearly states, you can never do the same action twice, even if one of them is a free action.

Right, the argument is that "Expert Handling" is an action and "Barrel Roll" is a separate action, not the same action twice.

Posted at

dbmeboy said:

ferris1971 said:

The book clearly states, you can never do the same action twice, even if one of them is a free action.

Right, the argument is that "Expert Handling" is an action and "Barrel Roll" is a separate action, not the same action twice.

Which makes sense, because one is called "Expert Handling" , the other is called "Barrel Roll".

Posted at

The way I read it, Expert handling simply adds an effect when you perform a barrel roll. You're taking a barrel roll action that also breaks target locks to the performing ship. The other benefit is that it allows ships without the barrel roll action in it's action bar to take that action but with a penalty in the form of a stress token.

If you read it as Expert Handling being it's own new action type, then the dual barrel roll appears to be totally legit, but would only really be available for One character (Vader) or through the Squad Leader skill being applied to a ship with Expert Handling. So situational at best. And would make sense. If an X-Wing barrel rolling implies an especially gifted pilot, then putting that pilot in a nimble ship like the TIE and watch him corkscrew around the battle zone doing multiple barrel rolls fits.

The way it's written is clunky and needs an FAQ to settle.

-DavicusPrime

Posted at

DavicusPrime said:

The way I read it, Expert handling simply adds an effect when you perform a barrel roll. You're taking a barrel roll action that also breaks target locks to the performing ship. The other benefit is that it allows ships without the barrel roll action in it's action bar to take that action but with a penalty in the form of a stress token.

If you read it as Expert Handling being it's own new action type, then the dual barrel roll appears to be totally legit, but would only really be available for One character (Vader) or through the Squad Leader skill being applied to a ship with Expert Handling. So situational at best. And would make sense. If an X-Wing barrel rolling implies an especially gifted pilot, then putting that pilot in a nimble ship like the TIE and watch him corkscrew around the battle zone doing multiple barrel rolls fits.

The way it's written is clunky and needs an FAQ to settle.

-DavicusPrime

The reason I don't read it the same as you do: Expert Handling doesn't have a "static" ability that gives the barrel roll action and gives it an extra benefit, but instead has its own Action line. Similar to how Marksmanship is its own action, not a variant of focusing (so Vader with Marksmanship could both use that and focus on his turn).

Posted at

Obviously he can do multiple barrel rolls. It's supposed to represent Vader's sweet barrel roll skils as seen in

Posted at

supremespleen said:

Obviously he can do multiple barrel rolls. It's supposed to represent Vader's sweet barrel roll skils as seen in

.

Nice!

Posted at

supremespleen said:

Obviously he can do multiple barrel rolls. It's supposed to represent Vader's sweet barrel roll skils as seen in

.

Okay… Debate over. gran_risa.gif

-DavicusPrime

Posted at

dbmeboy said:

The reason I don't read it the same as you do: Expert Handling doesn't have a "static" ability that gives the barrel roll action and gives it an extra benefit, but instead has its own Action line. Similar to how Marksmanship is its own action, not a variant of focusing (so Vader with Marksmanship could both use that and focus on his turn).

As I was writing my attempt to cover the "other side's" point of view, I weakened my confidence in my favored reading. As of now I'm turning neutral, though SupremeSpleen's highly researched answer very nearly destroyed the Expert Handling is just a Barrel Roll argument.

-DavicusPrime

Posted at

Glad to be of service, gents.

Posted at

DavicusPrime said:

dbmeboy said:

The reason I don't read it the same as you do: Expert Handling doesn't have a "static" ability that gives the barrel roll action and gives it an extra benefit, but instead has its own Action line. Similar to how Marksmanship is its own action, not a variant of focusing (so Vader with Marksmanship could both use that and focus on his turn).

As I was writing my attempt to cover the "other side's" point of view, I weakened my confidence in my favored reading. As of now I'm turning neutral, though SupremeSpleen's highly researched answer very nearly destroyed the Expert Handling is just a Barrel Roll argument.

-DavicusPrime

I pretty much gave up on this thread because it seems like the same arguments just keep getting rehashed over and over. At this point, I don't see how anything but a FAQ or an official response will convince one side or the other what the correct ruling is. Having said that, I'll go back to my original argument: you just have to call a spade a spade.

I mean if we want to get ridiculously literal about it, if the "barrel roll" action is different from the [symbol barrel roll], then the target lock removal only happens on TIE fighters and TIE advanced ships since they are the only ones with the symbol. An X-wing, performing the "expert handling" actoin is supposedly not doing the [symbol barrel roll] action so sucks to be him. Vader doing two rolls needs to declare which roll he's doing because only one will blow target locks. The other one is an expert handling action and won't remove it. Make sense? Not to me… :D

Posted at

spacemonkeymafia said:

DavicusPrime said:

dbmeboy said:

The reason I don't read it the same as you do: Expert Handling doesn't have a "static" ability that gives the barrel roll action and gives it an extra benefit, but instead has its own Action line. Similar to how Marksmanship is its own action, not a variant of focusing (so Vader with Marksmanship could both use that and focus on his turn).

As I was writing my attempt to cover the "other side's" point of view, I weakened my confidence in my favored reading. As of now I'm turning neutral, though SupremeSpleen's highly researched answer very nearly destroyed the Expert Handling is just a Barrel Roll argument.

-DavicusPrime

I pretty much gave up on this thread because it seems like the same arguments just keep getting rehashed over and over. At this point, I don't see how anything but a FAQ or an official response will convince one side or the other what the correct ruling is. Having said that, I'll go back to my original argument: you just have to call a spade a spade.

I mean if we want to get ridiculously literal about it, if the "barrel roll" action is different from the [symbol barrel roll], then the target lock removal only happens on TIE fighters and TIE advanced ships since they are the only ones with the symbol. An X-wing, performing the "expert handling" actoin is supposedly not doing the [symbol barrel roll] action so sucks to be him. Vader doing two rolls needs to declare which roll he's doing because only one will blow target locks. The other one is an expert handling action and won't remove it. Make sense? Not to me… :D

I'm with you. I gave up on this a while ago. I can see it either way. But I think this ruling will set a precedence. It just needs to be made. I'm new to FFG forums. I'm used to WotC forums where they have no problem making rulings on the boards and then transferring them to the FAQ later. How does FFG handle the FAQ. Will it have its own page that gets updated regularly whenever a ruling is made? Or will it be a PDF that only gets updated quarterly or when a certain number of questions are answered?

Roy

Posted at

FAQs seem to be only intermittently updated. We still don't have an official FAQ for Rune Age that I'm aware of and it's over its 1-year mark now. The best thing to do is wait for FFG to email an official response to someone who has submitted this question to them and then have that individual post the response here. Then eventually it will be incorporated into a FAQ.

Posted at

In an email with Steve Kimball, who to my understanding designed the rules, I commented on double barrel rolls from Vader drawing a number of my games with friends. At that point he assured me that it was not possible for a ship to preform two barrel rolls regardless of special abilities.

Now I was not asking a specific question regarding Expert Handling, but his response made it pretty clear that you can not double barrel roll.

Posted at

ScottieATF said:

In an email with Steve Kimball, who to my understanding designed the rules, I commented on double barrel rolls from Vader drawing a number of my games with friends. At that point he assured me that it was not possible for a ship to preform two barrel rolls regardless of special abilities.

Now I was not asking a specific question regarding Expert Handling, but his response made it pretty clear that you can not double barrel roll.

It's nice to get an official response. Would have been nicer if we had gotten it here on the official forums rather than via email.

Thanks for posting this.

Posted at

bsmith13 said:

ScottieATF said:

In an email with Steve Kimball, who to my understanding designed the rules, I commented on double barrel rolls from Vader drawing a number of my games with friends. At that point he assured me that it was not possible for a ship to preform two barrel rolls regardless of special abilities.

Now I was not asking a specific question regarding Expert Handling, but his response made it pretty clear that you can not double barrel roll.

It's nice to get an official response. Would have been nicer if we had gotten it here on the official forums rather than via email.

Thanks for posting this.

This doesn't clear anything up. We already know you can't perform the same action twice. The question is, is an Expert Handling action the same as a Barrel Roll action.

Posted at

My opinion is that Expert Handling allows the use of the Barrel Roll action to ships that cannot normally perform a Barrel Roll action. It is an action that performs another action. So while Expert Handling is a different action than a Barrel Roll, the Barrel Roll that the Expert Handling executes *is* the same as the standard Barrel Roll action.

So, executing Expert Handling is technically performing 2 actions in one: 1) Expert Handling, which then triggers a 2) Barrel Roll.

So, since Expert Handling is performing an Barrel Roll, you couldn't perform a second Barrel Roll because Expert Handling has already cause one to be performed. [shrug]

Posted at

rhaak said:

bsmith13 said:

ScottieATF said:

In an email with Steve Kimball, who to my understanding designed the rules, I commented on double barrel rolls from Vader drawing a number of my games with friends. At that point he assured me that it was not possible for a ship to preform two barrel rolls regardless of special abilities.

Now I was not asking a specific question regarding Expert Handling, but his response made it pretty clear that you can not double barrel roll.

It's nice to get an official response. Would have been nicer if we had gotten it here on the official forums rather than via email.

Thanks for posting this.

This doesn't clear anything up. We already know you can't perform the same action twice. The question is, is an Expert Handling action the same as a Barrel Roll action.

I agree. This clears nothing up. We already know that Vader can't Barrel Roll twice. That is not the question. The question is, if Vader uses Expert Handling, can he use Barrel Roll as a second action? I still believe that he cannot. But right now, opinions are like…well you know the phrase. We can all go back and forth arguing our points, but until we get a TRUE ruling via FAQ or otherwise, you're just going to have to make a house rule to deal with it.

Roy